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<pre>on 6/5/01 9:53 AM, Nikolaus at nld@yucom.be wrote:

> Well, your kidneys will not be very grateful for that assault of 30%
> proteins!;

I know of no documented evidence of kidney damage caused by high protein
diets: if there is, please provide citations...

> I hope you drank a lot along with this diet.

Of course! Water *and* wine ;-)

> Secondly, nutrition
> poor in carbohydrates and rich in fat and proteins is unavoidably poor in
> fibers;

Nonsense. The Zone diet involves eating a lot of fruit and vegetables, and
dietary fibre is certainly not lacking.

> Thirdly: you can trick the body only for a
> limited time; ultimately a diet with unrestricted fat intake will always
> lead to weight gain (fat gives more than twice the calories per weight as
> carbohydrates).

This is also nonsense. Evidence please? Prior to adopting a Western diet,
there was little obesity amongst eskimo, whose diet was almost exclusively
protein and fat.

> Fourth, a diet that succeeds in providing weight loss is not
> automatically a healthy diet.

Agreed. A low fat diet can be very damaging in the long term, particularly
if it provides inadequate levels of essential fatty acids (including olive
oil).

> Lastly, it is rather well researched, what
> food composition is healthy for the organism as a whole: proteins: 15%
> (preferably more than half of it from animal sources), less might be fine
> also, more only during rapid growth or specific training in some sports;
> fat: 30%; carbohydrates (of course preferably unrefined): all the rest, i.e.
> about 55%!.

Evidence, please? Modern human eating patterns are vastly different to those
we evolved to cope with. If I had the time, I would do more research on the
diet of our pleistocene ancestors - that would provide pointers to what is
really appropriate...

Mammals can exist on a wide variety of diets: felines live on protein and
fat, bovines on grass. What's we are designed to function on is what we
evolved to eat.

> So while it's right that we should avoid refined carbohydrates
> (sugar, but not flower), carbohydrates in general are the most healthy part
> of our diet, and fats, if taken in abundance, do make you fat.

Fat will only make you fat if you take no (or too little) exercise, and eat
too much carbohydrate.

> All taken together: less animals, more plant products, explicitly including
> rice, potatoes, and pasta.

I repeat my prescription:

"Eat more meat and vegetables, and dowse the lot in olive oil. Wash it down
with red wine. Don't live on a pasta and bread diet, just enjoy them from
time to time. You'll be doing yourself a favour!"

To which I would only add - "Don't forget the fish and nuts".

PS: NZ walnut growers and researchers have isolated a cultivar which appears
to have very beneficial effects on blood chemistry. A handful of these
walnuts a day is capable of lowering cholesterol levels significantly.
Sadly, walnuts take a lot longer than olives to reach commercial production
- ten years or more.

--
Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
Words, olives and truffles
Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
Mobile 025 790 070
"I used to be with it, but then what it was changed, and now what I'm with
isn't it anymore." (Grandpa Simpson)
</pre>
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<pre>I've followed this discussion on the "Olive Diet" an am intrigued by the
various points of view. When caomparing the Mediterranean diet with the
Zone Diet, the most obvious evidence in favour of the former is that
populaitons have existed healthfully for thousands of years on this fare,
whereas Barry Sears' Zone Diet is only a recent innovation. Don't try to
compare the Eskimo diet with other high-protein, high-fat, low-carbohydrate
diets. Where modern Man (and Woman, of course) tend to eat largely the
mi\uscle meat of the animal (be it beef, lamb, poultry etc), Eskimoes
enjoyed many other parts of the animal. When they consumed whale, they also
ate the internal organs such as adrenals, liver, brain, kidney etc. Such
glands store a range of nutrients which are not stored in the muscle meat.
This is comparable in many ways to carnivorous animals such as lions which
obtain a balance of nutrients by eating the whole animal, usually an animal
which was a herbivore. As a result, the lion (and Eskimo) could obtain
essential plant nutrients second-hand.

Gareth, you are obviously a supporter of the Zone Diet. Have you wondered
how long this diet has been in practice? How do we really know what the
long-term effects might be? In fact, the Zone Diet is considered very
controversial in Nutrition circles. With 2 major food groups practically
eliminated (grains and dairy), how does one ensure that dietary deficiencies
do not occur? From where does a Zone dieter obtain, for example, sufficient
calcium or the range of nutrients found in grains?

I think that if you were to do research on prehistoric Man (Palaeolithic, in
particular before grains were cultivated), you would find that these
meat-eaters ate animals "on the hoof". These animals didn't graze on
pastures or were fed grains like modern farm animals. Instead, they were
constantly on the move. As a result, they contained very little body fat
and what they did was largely omega-3 fatty acids, not the saturated and
omega-6 fats found in the meats we eat today. The fat profile of the food
source was quite different and so the fatty acid composition of the tissues
of Paleaolithic Man was quite different from ours today. To compare the
Zone Diet with this is clearly no comparison at all. As well, prehistoric
Man ate the whole animal, not selected muscle meats as we do today.

In relation to your NZ walnut, I suspect it is quite similar to other
walnuts in that they contain a high proportion of omega-3 fatty acids. This
is quite like the oil found in fish, linseeds, purslane and other green
leafy vegetables. Olives do not contain any significant quantity of omega-3
fatty acids but the combination of olive's monounsaturated fatty acids
together with the foods listed as being high in omega-3 fats provide what is
being seen as the ideal oil composition for cardiovascular health. And
isn't this exactly what the traditional Mediterraneans diet contains? Very
little animal meat, lots of vegetables, grains, fish, legumes, nuts and of
course olives!









----- Original Message -----
From: "Gareth Renowden" <gareth@renowden.co.nz>
To: <OliveOil@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] olive diet


> on 6/5/01 9:53 AM, Nikolaus at nld@yucom.be wrote:
>
> > Well, your kidneys will not be very grateful for that assault of 30%
> > proteins!;
>
> I know of no documented evidence of kidney damage caused by high protein
> diets: if there is, please provide citations...
>
> > I hope you drank a lot along with this diet.
>
> Of course! Water *and* wine ;-)
>
> > Secondly, nutrition
> > poor in carbohydrates and rich in fat and proteins is unavoidably poor
in
> > fibers;
>
> Nonsense. The Zone diet involves eating a lot of fruit and vegetables, and
> dietary fibre is certainly not lacking.
>
> > Thirdly: you can trick the body only for a
> > limited time; ultimately a diet with unrestricted fat intake will always
> > lead to weight gain (fat gives more than twice the calories per weight
as
> > carbohydrates).
>
> This is also nonsense. Evidence please? Prior to adopting a Western diet,
> there was little obesity amongst eskimo, whose diet was almost exclusively
> protein and fat.
>
> > Fourth, a diet that succeeds in providing weight loss is not
> > automatically a healthy diet.
>
> Agreed. A low fat diet can be very damaging in the long term, particularly
> if it provides inadequate levels of essential fatty acids (including olive
> oil).
>
> > Lastly, it is rather well researched, what
> > food composition is healthy for the organism as a whole: proteins: 15%
> > (preferably more than half of it from animal sources), less might be
fine
> > also, more only during rapid growth or specific training in some sports;
> > fat: 30%; carbohydrates (of course preferably unrefined): all the rest,
i.e.
> > about 55%!.
>
> Evidence, please? Modern human eating patterns are vastly different to
those
> we evolved to cope with. If I had the time, I would do more research on
the
> diet of our pleistocene ancestors - that would provide pointers to what is
> really appropriate...
>
> Mammals can exist on a wide variety of diets: felines live on protein and
> fat, bovines on grass. What's we are designed to function on is what we
> evolved to eat.
>
> > So while it's right that we should avoid refined carbohydrates
> > (sugar, but not flower), carbohydrates in general are the most healthy
part
> > of our diet, and fats, if taken in abundance, do make you fat.
>
> Fat will only make you fat if you take no (or too little) exercise, and
eat
> too much carbohydrate.
>
> > All taken together: less animals, more plant products, explicitly
including
> > rice, potatoes, and pasta.
>
> I repeat my prescription:
>
> "Eat more meat and vegetables, and dowse the lot in olive oil. Wash it
down
> with red wine. Don't live on a pasta and bread diet, just enjoy them from
> time to time. You'll be doing yourself a favour!"
>
> To which I would only add - "Don't forget the fish and nuts".
>
> PS: NZ walnut growers and researchers have isolated a cultivar which
appears
> to have very beneficial effects on blood chemistry. A handful of these
> walnuts a day is capable of lowering cholesterol levels significantly.
> Sadly, walnuts take a lot longer than olives to reach commercial
production
> - ten years or more.
>
> --
> Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
> Words, olives and truffles
> Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
> Mobile 025 790 070
> "I used to be with it, but then what it was changed, and now what I'm with
> isn't it anymore." (Grandpa Simpson)
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> NEW FUGI DIGITAL Camera (40% Discount)
> Now only $179.99: www.sadoun.com
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
</pre>
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<pre>Gareth,
See a previous posting of mine with regard to the Lies and Frauds of the
"gurus" of fad diets. The Author is MD called Vigilante (co-author Mary
Flynn) both researchers into diet and health in US University. Title is
"Low Fat Lies, High Fat Frauds and the Healthiest Diet in the World".
The basics involve the consumption of most things in moderation, rather
than faddishly (and foolishly) going to extremes with either high fat or
low fat fad diets.

Evidence is something the Low fat and High fat diet peddlers are very
light on. Read the book and make up your own mind.

John Attwood
Tamworth
Northern NSW Aust

Gareth Renowden wrote:

> on 6/5/01 9:53 AM, Nikolaus at nld@yucom.be wrote:
>
>> Well, your kidneys will not be very grateful for that assault of 30%
>> proteins!;
>
>
> I know of no documented evidence of kidney damage caused by high protein
> diets: if there is, please provide citations...
>
>> I hope you drank a lot along with this diet.
>
>
> Of course! Water *and* wine ;-)
>
>> Secondly, nutrition
>> poor in carbohydrates and rich in fat and proteins is unavoidably poor in
>> fibers;
>
>
> Nonsense. The Zone diet involves eating a lot of fruit and vegetables, and
> dietary fibre is certainly not lacking.
>
>> Thirdly: you can trick the body only for a
>> limited time; ultimately a diet with unrestricted fat intake will always
>> lead to weight gain (fat gives more than twice the calories per weight as
>> carbohydrates).
>
>
> This is also nonsense. Evidence please? Prior to adopting a Western diet,
> there was little obesity amongst eskimo, whose diet was almost exclusively
> protein and fat.
>
>> Fourth, a diet that succeeds in providing weight loss is not
>> automatically a healthy diet.
>
>
> Agreed. A low fat diet can be very damaging in the long term, particularly
> if it provides inadequate levels of essential fatty acids (including olive
> oil).
>
>> Lastly, it is rather well researched, what
>> food composition is healthy for the organism as a whole: proteins: 15%
>> (preferably more than half of it from animal sources), less might be fine
>> also, more only during rapid growth or specific training in some sports;
>> fat: 30%; carbohydrates (of course preferably unrefined): all the rest, i.e.
>> about 55%!.
>
>
> Evidence, please? Modern human eating patterns are vastly different to those
> we evolved to cope with. If I had the time, I would do more research on the
> diet of our pleistocene ancestors - that would provide pointers to what is
> really appropriate...
>
> Mammals can exist on a wide variety of diets: felines live on protein and
> fat, bovines on grass. What's we are designed to function on is what we
> evolved to eat.
>
>> So while it's right that we should avoid refined carbohydrates
>> (sugar, but not flower), carbohydrates in general are the most healthy part
>> of our diet, and fats, if taken in abundance, do make you fat.
>
>
> Fat will only make you fat if you take no (or too little) exercise, and eat
> too much carbohydrate.
>
>
>> All taken together: less animals, more plant products, explicitly including
>> rice, potatoes, and pasta.
>
>
> I repeat my prescription:
>
> "Eat more meat and vegetables, and dowse the lot in olive oil. Wash it down
> with red wine. Don't live on a pasta and bread diet, just enjoy them from
> time to time. You'll be doing yourself a favour!"
>
> To which I would only add - "Don't forget the fish and nuts".
>
> PS: NZ walnut growers and researchers have isolated a cultivar which appears
> to have very beneficial effects on blood chemistry. A handful of these
> walnuts a day is capable of lowering cholesterol levels significantly.
> Sadly, walnuts take a lot longer than olives to reach commercial production
> - ten years or more.
>
> --
> Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
> Words, olives and truffles
> Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
> Mobile 025 790 070
> "I used to be with it, but then what it was changed, and now what I'm with
> isn't it anymore." (Grandpa Simpson)
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> NEW FUGI DIGITAL Camera (40% Discount)
> Now only $179.99: www.sadoun.com
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

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<pre>on 7/5/01 10:07 PM, John Attwood at johnat@oxleyolives.au2.com wrote:

> The basics involve the consumption of most things in moderation, rather
> than faddishly (and foolishly) going to extremes with either high fat or
> low fat fad diets.

John,

Thanks for the tip - I wasn't ignoring it, but there are just so many diet
books one can read in any given period, and apart from working on my own
next books, I'm working my way through Vikram Seth's A Suitable Boy. At
1,400+ pages I'm in it for the long haul.

And for what it's worth: I entirely agree with your statement above
--
Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
Words, olives and truffles
Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
Mobile 025 790 070
"I used to be with it, but then what it was changed, and now what I'm with
isn't it anymore." (Grandpa Simpson)
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

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<pre>on 7/5/01 5:40 PM, Christine Houghton at consgroup@powerup.com.au wrote:

This thread is becoming more appropriate to another group: this is therefore
my last contribution on the topic (though I'm very happy to continue
debating off-list).

> As a result, the lion (and Eskimo) could obtain
> essential plant nutrients second-hand.

I didn't realise that seals ate plants...

> Gareth, you are obviously a supporter of the Zone Diet. Have you wondered
> how long this diet has been in practice? How do we really know what the
> long-term effects might be? In fact, the Zone Diet is considered very
> controversial in Nutrition circles. With 2 major food groups practically
> eliminated (grains and dairy), how does one ensure that dietary deficiencies
> do not occur? From where does a Zone dieter obtain, for example, sufficient
> calcium or the range of nutrients found in grains?

You obviously completely misunderstand the Zone Diet. It does not eliminate
dairy or grains. Of all the "fad diets" it is perhaps the most nutritionally
balanced. Yogurt, milk, and cheese are all specifically recommended. It
suggests cutting down dramatically on refined carbohydrates, substituting
fruit and vegetables. Who's going to quarrel with that?

The Zone diet is a 40/30/30 diet: a bit more protein than most recommend,
and a bit less carbohydrate. It is neither extreme nor unbalanced: and it
works both as a weight loss diet and as a means of addressing blood
chemistry problems. Its only real faddishness is in its insistence that you
should eat 40/30/30 at every meal.

> I think that if you were to do research on prehistoric Man (Palaeolithic, in
> particular before grains were cultivated), you would find that these
> meat-eaters ate animals "on the hoof". [snip] To compare the
> Zone Diet with this is clearly no comparison at all. As well, prehistoric
> Man ate the whole animal, not selected muscle meats as we do today.

I didn't compare the Zone to the so-called "Pleistocene diets" that are
becoming fashionable in the US. I was merely noting that modern dietary
nostrums (whether high fat, low fat or whatever) bear little relation to the
diet we were eating while evolving into homo sapiens. And I like offal...

> In relation to your NZ walnut, I suspect it is quite similar to other
> walnuts in that they contain a high proportion of omega-3 fatty acids.

This cultivar is considerably more effective than others. Whether this is
due to omega-3 fatty acid content is the subject of research (though I
believe they think there is something else going on).

> isn't this exactly what the traditional Mediterraneans diet contains? Very
> little animal meat, lots of vegetables, grains, fish, legumes, nuts and of
> course olives!

The "Mediterranean Diet" is based on the eating habits of Cretan peasants.
It is just as much a fad as any other - if at least a little more grounded
in fact than low-fat diets. It is entirely compatible with eating "in the
Zone".

Enough: back to monitoring the Moraiolo (ripening nicely - earlier than
Leccino and Koroneiki, nice big round fruit)...

--
Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
Words, olives and truffles
Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
Mobile 025 790 070
"And when I find my trousers, I'll find my feet" (Viv Stanshall)
</pre>
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<pre>And just one more thing:

http://www.nypress.com/14/18/news&co...manfollies.cfm

A lot of good sense...
--
Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
Words, olives and truffles
Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
Mobile 025 790 070
"Reading maketh a full man; conference a ready man; and writing an exact
man." (Francis Bacon)
</pre>
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<pre>I am on a diet that contains just about no carbohydrates. I've been on it for
15 months. I used to have a great deal of pain due to an arthritic condition
I have, and through research I found that starch, and to a lesser extent
sugars, cause the pain. So I stopped eating them. I now have almost no pain.

I don't have any kidney problems. I haven't lost weight, in fact I have
recently put on a little - but I'm a very healthy weight anyway. I don't have
any problems in terms of fibre (vegetables and fruit are excellent sources).

For why this diet works, see http://pcjagg.dbs.aber.ac.uk/as/as.html
and http://www.kickas.org/asdiet.shtml

And if anyone wants to tell me it doesn't work, I will ignore them. My body
has already told me it does. My doctor knows what I am doing and is
unconcerned about any health implications. She also recognises it's worked.

Adrian

On Saturday 05 May 2001 21:53, Nikolaus wrote:
>Well, your kidneys will not be very grateful for that assault of 30%
>proteins!; I hope you drank a lot along with this diet. Secondly, nutrition
>poor in carbohydrates and rich in fat and proteins is unavoidably poor in
>fibers; your blood vessels probably won't like that, and surely your
>intestines may pay you heavily for it later (remember: it's not only the
>"visible" fibers that count). Thirdly: you can trick the body only for a
>limited time; ultimately a diet with unrestricted fat intake will always
>lead to weight gain (fat gives more than twice the calories per weight as
>carbohydrates). Fourth, a diet that succeeds in providing weight loss is not
>automatically a healthy diet. Lastly, it is rather well researched, what
>food composition is healthy for the organism as a whole: proteins: 15%
>(preferably more than half of it from animal sources), less might be fine
>also, more only during rapid growth or specific training in some sports;
>fat: 30%; carbohydrates (of course preferably unrefined): all the rest, i.e.
>about 55%!. So while it's right that we should avoid refined carbohydrates
>(sugar, but not flower), carbohydrates in general are the most healthy part
>of our diet, and fats, if taken in abundance, do make you fat.
>
>All taken together: less animals, more plant products, explicitly including
>rice, potatoes, and pasta.
>
>Greetings,
>
>Nikolaus
>Dr. Nikolaus Lutz-Dettinger
>Belgium


--
Dr. Adrian D. Shaw
University of Wales, Aberystwyth
</pre>
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<pre>I don't want to comment on things that I'm not certain of, and I'm not a
rheumatologist. I'm glad that dietary adaptations can help in some
rheumatological diseases, which are difficult enough to treat.
But for the sake of others, who might feel inclined to experiment with diets
and other aspects of health with less scientific backing, I prefer to have
the facts straight: fruit and vegetables, together with other plant
products, are the only sources of fibers; at the same time, with a few
exceptions, besides water they consist - luckily for most of us - for nearly
100% of carbohydrates, and in the majority carbohydrates that are much more
"refined" than starch (potato, flour) .
And now that the thread appears to be still active, I'll take the
opportunity to comment on the proof of innocence for high protein diets by
referring to felines (in a mail on or two days back): guess what's the most
frequent killer disease for felines (I have had up to 24 lovely cats myself)
after accidents?
Greetings,

Nikolaus
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Adrian D. Shaw [mailto:Adrian.Shaw@aber.ac.uk]
Verzonden: dinsdag 8 mei 2001 12:36
Aan: OliveOil@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [OliveOil] olive diet


I am on a diet that contains just about no carbohydrates. I've been on it
for
15 months. I used to have a great deal of pain due to an arthritic
condition
I have, and through research I found that starch, and to a lesser extent
sugars, cause the pain. So I stopped eating them. I now have almost no
pain.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
</pre>
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