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<pre>Sorry to be a bore my friends but more test results are to hand. In a major
plantation (major by Oz standards) there have been 5000 + trees of
Manzanilla de Sevilla planted. Of course there have been much larger
plantations of the same sub-cv of this variety in Oz - some say in the
hundreds of thousands. I am not at all sure of how many.

Tests completed today show that of a batch of this fruit there was 1%
available oil. The fruit was way past is pick by date (by 4 weeks) but was
still hanging on the tree. The fruit came from 48 month old trees irrigated
on a regular manner. Tests were carried out by Wagga Uni. This is to be
juxtaposed by Julian Archer's comments regarding oil content this season as
being, for the same variety, as being "laboratory oil content result 22.9%".
Why this apparent discrepancy?

In further conversations with other major processors it would seem that they
have been extracting around 18-19% oil from their Manzanillo's. I presume
this is the sub-cv Prieta although no-one seems to know at the moment.
Testing is being carried out.

And hereby is the quandary for Oz growers. If the above is true then a lot
of DNA testing needs to be done now. If you have an oil producing variety
of Manzanillo get it certified because, as a producer of oil, I am paying
for oil content and am not at all interested in even mare table fruit. If
it is not an oil producing variety then make your decisions accordingly. It
may make a very good cured olive or tapenade but just remember cured
Kalamata olives are shipped over here for $A350/tonne. The same amount I
paid to get the olives off the tree last year.

Regards
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<pre>For initiating this rich and very informative discussion about the
"de-pressing" Manzanillo, I would like to thank Peter Carid for his
continuos contribution as well as my friend Andrew Brown, whom I have missed
to meet during my last February/March visit to Australia due to time
constrains. Whereas in January this year Andrew was looking for available
land with water to embark on a 10 ha olive project, we have exchanged few
massages on the olive subject. We definitely missed one chance to meet, and
if you do not come to Egypt soon enough we could stand another chance in
just few months, as I will be the main speaker on the WA Olive Festival
organized by GROGS. For details, please contact "Maggie Edmonds"
perthbeyond@hotmail.com , phone 08 9575 1107, fax 08 9575 1137.

From the exchange of messages on this site, I have gathered that the first
tragedy of Manzanillo <0.1% oil was on fruits coming from Ian Fraser & Jenny
Davidson grove and processed on an "Oliomio 100" operated by P. Carid. The
second not so bad tragedy was the case of Andrew and his cousin of 6% oil
extracted by an unknown process, except that it was a Greek machine.
Although, it is very appreciable that Andrew got with his investigation so
deeply to the stage of extracting olive oil before embarking his project to
know all about the myths and realities of this old age established industry,
we all are still hungry for more information. It will be very appreciable if
our involved colleagues with these unpleasant tragedies provide us with A-Z
detailed accurate information in respect of climatic conditions, management
practices and processing. Something has gone wrong, which should not be
blamed on the Manzanillo and we need to pin point it to avoid falling in the
same situation.

Following are my subjective comments on the discussion so far:
Ø It has been a bit miss-tracked with the original issue almost set aside.
Ø If there is a real problem, as growers we definitely need answers that are
more constructive.
Ø All of a sudden and for no obvious reasons, the Manzanillo oil became a
curse from which everybody is trying to run away.
Ø There sound to be a problem of receiving advises from too many "experts"
against knowledge from very few "experienced olive people". They are
refraining from answering the too many quires, either because they do not
visit this site or because they consider the whole situation as a trifle
problem that do not concern them. Their absence is resulting in too much
panic from the exchange of too many unreal views.
Ø Rather than finding causes for or solutions to the problem, it seems as if
there is a trend to find someone other than growers or processors to receive
all the blame. If this is true, then forget it my dear friends! The problem
will remain unidentified, unresolved and will repeat itself again and again!
Ø With the lack of information and to some extent knowledge on different
levels, a single misfortune case has been generalized without grounds.

I personally believe that there must have been some wrong practices that
could be anywhere between the trees as they are (reacting to climatic
conditions / management practices) and the processing of the oil to get such
(de-pressing) results from any variety. We must not forget that table olive
varieties, which are used only for green pickling due to very low oil
content, when pressed they yield 3-4% oil! If any one knows an olive variety
with lower oil content than that, he should really advice us, as smart
growers will market it as low fat table variety!

As a grower, author and oil producer, I do not see realistic reasons to
panic and I do not claim to have all the answers as I have not shared the
initial surroundings but I will try to find some. It is relatively a long
path and this might turn to be a very long message. SO FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT
HAVE THE TIME TO READ IT, IT IS BETTER TO SKIP IT AND MOVE TO THE NEXT
MESSAGE ON THIS VERY INTERESTING FORUM SITE.

MY PERSONAL VIEWS ON WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED:

Ø Irrespective of harvesting date or fruit conditions except if it were
attacked by the olive fly and even if it were, the tragedy result of <0.1%
could have not been from Manzanillo or any other olive variety which oil
could be extracted solely by physical means.
Ø Definitely, it is not Manzanillo as will be later discussed and concluded
in this message. P. Carid in his last email of 19.05.2000 is coming close to
such a conclusion. He is even quoting 18-19% for the Manzanillo from other
processors. Such results could be easily achieved with continuos large
capacity mills with their heating jackets around the olive paste during
malaxing and added water during processing stages. On this very sensitive
matter of Manzanillo oil yield figures and for more professional and
scientific contribution, interested Australian readers of this forum should
contact my friends James Smyth of VIVA Olives 08 8584 5811,
saoleorp@riverland.net.au and Paul McClure of Sunraysia Horticulture Centre
03 5051 4500, paul.mcclure@nre.vic.gov.au for their views on the matter.
Ø The oil of some very rare noncommercial olive varieties can not be
extracted except with chemical additives (solvents) and processing followed
by refining similar to seed oils. Physical means, especially centrifugation
would not be capable of extracting oil from such varieties. In 1997, I came
across such a variety, which was delivered for my Oliomio. I spent about 8
hours trying to extract a single drop from the oil, which was very obvious
in the paste without any success whatsoever. The next morning, I drove 100
km to the oil research center in Cairo with a sample of the paste, where I
gathered the previous information. This variety passed unidentified so if
some of the world researchers involved on such matters can advise us with
synonymous of such varieties and their characteristic it would be much
appreciated.
Ø In traditional olive growing regions, the existence of "not true to type"
varieties in any single grove is common due to the huge planted numbers of
trees and propagation mistakes by nurseries. Nevertheless, growers have been
accustomed on how to deal with such problems. Australians coming in very
recently and utilizing knowledge collated by others during hundreds of years
thought that their groves are true to type, which is not the case as I have
verified during my one-month olive tour. Large-scale propagation in
Australia has started few years ago from existing old varieties, before
establishing mother plots. Imagine that a mature olive tree can produce up
to 10,000 cuttings. With a 60% strike, a nursery could have sold 6000 trees
of a difficult to extract oil variety under the name of Manzanillo, only
because the fruit features were similar. A small grove of 4000 trees, half
of which is supposed to be Manzanillo, could have them all of such a
misfortune variety coming from a single batch.
Ø The second possibility, which could not have happened with an experienced
Oliomio operator like P. Carid is that the initial malaxing time was not
enough. Even if this were the case at least 4-5% should have been extracted.
The Oliomio operating manual indicates one hour as an initial malaxing time,
which should not be taken as a rule or for granted. Every variety is
different from others and its extractable oil is different from a ripening
stage to the other and you should be experienced enough to know when your
paste has exerted the maximum oil. With time lapse during malaxing, a circle
of oil accumulation floating on top of the paste gets wider until it reaches
a maximum size. In large horizontal malaxers, the oil starts to float in
thin long lines along both sides of the agitators and continue to get wider
with time. In all cases, unnecessary prolonged malaxing time could reduce
the quality of the oil, especially with large mills as much of the volatile
ends will evaporate.
Ø The third possibility is that the paste was very cold and even if it were
the case, some oil drops should have come out. Peter Carid mentioned he
tried to heat the paste without success.

FEW SIMPLE FACTS AFFECTING THE QUALITY & QUANTITY OF OLIVE OIL:

Ø Fruits harvested early in the season produce greenish color oil, as they
are rich in their chlorophyll levels, while those harvested at the end of
season produce a yellowish color because of the increasing levels of
Carotene, a substance responsible for red and yellow coloring of fruits.
Ø The responsible components for the aroma are multiple volatile alcoholic
ones and esters. Heating the paste in large malaxers to increase the
extracted oil yield is therefore responsible for reducing the aromatic
characteristics of the oil. Also prolonged malaxing time leads to the same
result.
Ø The above volatile substances in association with fatty acids and
polyphenols contribute in the distinctive flavor of virgin olive oil.
Polyphenols with their anti-oxidant nature prolong the shelf life of the oil
protecting it from enhanced aging or in other words from becoming quickly
rancid. Adding water to the paste to increase oil yields or for decantation
or to help in pumping the paste from one stage to the other in the mill wash
away some of the polyphenols.
Ø Post-mature green olives do not only have a difficult to extract low oil
content but also lower moisture level and reduced amounts of antioxidant.
Ø The oil content starts to build up once the fruit is mature and reaches
its highest level just slightly before the fruit is ripe and then starts to
decline. For some, it might seem to keep on increasing, but this is, in
fact, due to the fruit dehydration associated with aging. Oil extracted from
aged fruits is of the worst quality all the way down the season.
Ø Antioxidants behave in a similar way but are at their maximum when the
fruits are almost halfway ripe and thereafter they start to decline sharply
to reach their lowest levels at the last stages of ripening. Therefore,
among other reasons, oil extracted at the end of the pressing season has a
very short shelf life as well as reduced levels of aroma and flavor. On the
day of pressing it could be extra virgin but within few weeks its acidity
increases sharply moving it down the scale to virgin oil and then to
ordinary virgin olive oil, thereafter it must be refined if the acidity
level becomes higher than 3.3.
Ø Other factors and practices contribute drastically to the quality of oil
such as but not limited to the health condition of the harvested fruit, time
of harvesting in respect of the stage of ripening, methods of harvesting,
time lapse between harvesting and processing, fruit temporary storage
conditions and processing methods which should aim at keeping the oil
characteristics as they were naturally contained in the fruit. Olive oil is
considered as fruit juice and fresh fruit juice should not be altered.
Ø Young olive trees produce generally high quality fruits in all their
characteristics including those for oil.

OIL FROM FULLY IRRIGATED OLIVE GROVES:

Ø Production: with comparable planting densities, it is higher per unit
ground area than under dry land condition. Naturally, the oil per kg fruit
will be slightly less due to the increased moisture content; nevertheless,
the overall oil production will be much higher. The increased oil yield per
ha is attributed to higher crops and higher flesh/pit ratio. An increase of
up to 40% of the oil production in supplementary irrigated olive groves has
been reported. For those who are interested in fresh weight production
figures of fully irrigated groves, please refer to the data of my grove
published in my article of the AOG issue no. 13 of September 1999.
Ø Quality: better due to the higher level contents of polyphenols, which
will extend the shelf life of the oil.
Ø Sustainability: by far much better due to less tendency for alternate
bearing. This sustainability is not only influenced by irrigation but by
other management practices including harvesting and each grower should
settle on which way fits his needs better:
1. Harvesting relatively early = less oil but of high quality (premium unit
price) + good crop the following year.
2. Harvesting relatively late = more oil of lower quality (lower unit
prices) + reduced crop the following year.

OIL PRODUCTION OBJECTIVES (marketing driven):

Ø If your markets are wide open with welcoming arms that will consume
whatever quantities you are producing of less aromatic flavored oil, then
target at securing the highest possible oil yields from fully ripened
fruits. Your oil will have a short lifetime and should be marketed early
enough to avoid any degradation dictating further actions with additional
expenditures. Further you must be able to compete with traditional huge
quantities producers.
Ø If you have access to the boutique olive oil markets and to authentic
consumers who understand and appreciate high quality olive oil, then you
have to satisfy their needs for the prices they are going to pay. The best
quality oil is produced when the fruits on a single tree are within the
following approximate figures:
- 10 - 15% fully ripe with dark coloration (these will be at the top of the
crown)
- 65 - 70% halfway fully colored (these will be on the crown periphery)
- 15 - 20% green (these will be on the lower parts of the skirt and in
shaded areas)

MANZANILLO NEWS FROM AROUND THE WORLD:

A. MY OWN EXPERIENCE:
Ø I manage this variety as an excellent multi purpose variety.
Ø Very adaptable to different processing schemes. Green pickling,
pitting/stuffing, slicing and natural black ripe fermentation.
Ø Under fully irrigated conditions, the trees are regular bearers. It
produces an oil yield of 14.5 up to 16.3% depending on the degree of
ripening. The oil is very fruity, full bodied and mild to the palate tending
to the sweet side at final ripening stages.
Ø One of the very good features of this oil is its stability, which in price
value compensate for the percentage of extracted oil. It can be stored for
longer period without getting deteriorated.
Ø My findings within the last three years in respect of the different oil
varieties stability is as follows:
1. Picual
2. Manzanillo
3. Unidentified variety (given nick name: Hindy). Without success, have been
trying to propagate it from cuttings and will go for graft this year.
4. Coratina
5. Koroneiki
6. Frantoio

B. IN CALIFORNIA
Ø Steve Sibbett massage of 6.5.2000 has enriched the discussion as well as
being very informative. He has raised lot of questions, which have not yet
been answered by Australian growers, processors or researchers. Steve quoted
oil yield figures matching with those indicated in the "California Manual",
which could not be considered less than adequate. Although it is used there
mainly as a table olive, nevertheless with such extractable oil percentage,
it could be used as well for oil.
Ø If it were not for this oil content, this variety would have not been
suitable for the California ripe process.
Ø The prominent olive oil producer "Nick Sciabica" markets different fall
and winter variety oils among which is a Fall Harvest Manzanillo. It is sold
for the same price of Mission and is introduced as "robust and it has the
most intense olive flavor of all other varieties". Presumably, he offers
only a fall oil of this variety as the majority of Manzanillo is harvested
green for the California ripe process and the oil could be processed from
graded undersized fruits not suitable for table.

C. SELECTIVE QUOTES FROM A RECENT PAPER ENTITLED "OLIVE CULTIVARS IN SPAIN"
BY DIEGO BARRANCO AND LUIS RALLO PUBLISHED IN THE JANUARY-MARCH 2000 OF
HORTECHNOLOGY:
Ø 92% of Spanish production is used for oil extraction and the rest for
table olives.
Ø Average rainfall in the main olive producing areas of Spain ranges between
300 and 600 mm.
Ø Rainfall is heaviest in fall and spring.
Ø Summer is dry and hot, reaching temperatures of over 35 degree centigrade.
Ø Table 1 provides data for area of olive orchards and average data for 7
years (1990-1996) on olive oil and table olive production. From this table,
the area in Spain is 2,241,000 Ha, olive oil production is 650,000 tons and
table olive production is 240,000 tons.
Ø Table 2 provides data for major olive cultivars in Spain, their use (O =
oil, T = table), area and district location. The only varieties indicated
with usage as (T) in this table are Manzanilla de Sevilla with 85,000 ha and
Gordal Sevillana with 30,000 ha. Varieties indicated with usage as (O&T) are
Hojiblanca, Manzanilla Cacerena and Alorena with acreage of 237,000 ha,
64,000 ha and 17,000 ha respectively.
Ø Table 3 presents average data from various studies in different years on
fruit weighty, flesh/pit ratio, oil content, percentage of oleic acid in oil
and the stability of the oil for several Spanish olive cultivars. Oil
stability is measured by hours at 98.8 degree centigrade determined by
Rancimat method (frank et al., 1982). The highest figures on this table for
oil content are for the Sevillenca at 22.2% and a stability of 46.3 followed
in the second position by both the Picual and the Morisca at 22.1% but with
a stability of 119.4 and 41.6 respectively. MANZAN SEVILLA (A table variety
as per table 2 of this published paper) COMES AT THE SIXTH POSITION WITH A
SCORE OF 20.1% OIL CONTENT. The lowest oil producing variety among 19
different varieties is the Gordal Sevillana (Table) 14.5 % and 51.2
stability. Just on top of the former variety comes MANZAN CACERENA (An
Oil/Table variety as per table 2 of this published paper) WITH AN ADDITIONAL
2.2% TO SCORE 16.7% oil content. The lowest oil producing oil variety is the
Empeltre with oil content of 18.3% and 58.3 stability. The most impressing
data on this table is the data for oil stability which could be ranked as
follows:
No. 1: Picual at 119.4
No. 2: Cornicabra at 106.8
No. 3: Manzan Sevilla at 91.8
No. 4: Manzan Cacerena at 80.7
No. 5: Changlot Real at 61.1
No. 6 to 11: 6 varieties ranging from 60.8 of the Lechin de Sevilla down to
51.2 of the Gordal Sevillana
No. 12 to 15: 4 varieties ranging from 46.3 of the Sevillenca down to 40.5
of the Arbequina
The lowest stable oil is the Blanqueta at 27.1
Please note the drastic drop in stability from no. 4 to no. 5.

CONCLUSION:

1. Stability of oils should receive more attention from growers and
processors alike. Does it really worth to extract high quantities of a less
stable oil, store it for couple of months and then refine it to be sold as
refined or pure olive oil. Refining increases production cost and the
product is sold at a lower price. What good would high percentages do to us
if this is the case. Oils do not get sold the next morning after being
extracted!
2. With the sky rocketing consumers' awareness, in the few years to come
they will be questioning the quality of the oil they are buying. Producers
in their course of competition to satisfy their consumers, will find
themselves obliged to display on their labels the antioxidant levels of
their oil because that is what consumers are actually paying for. The future
will be for high quality stable oils rich in antioxidants.
3. Manzanillo is a double purpose variety (or even a triple purpose variety
AFAIC). Its oil is commercially viable for lot of different reasons. Those
who are still in doubt about the characteristics of this variety and could
not handle it, use it, manage it and market it as it is, should not wait for
longer to take a decision on their own.
4. Areas planted with Table olive varieties in Spain account to 115,000 ha
representing 5.13% while areas planted with Oil/Table varieties (dual
purpose) among which is Manzanilla Cacerena account to 318,000 ha
representing 14.20%. This leaves 80.67% for areas planted with oil
varieties.
5. In Spain, with 240,000 tons representing the 8% used for table olives,
the average yearly production within 7 years is to be estimated at 3,000,000
tons of which 92% (2,760,000 tons) are used to produce 650,000 tons of olive
oil with an extraction rate of 23.55%. A slightly higher figure than the
22.1% of the Picual being the dominant variety in Spain accounting to 32.4%
of the total acreage and 40% of the acreage planted with oil varieties.
6. The Manzan Sevilla although indicated as a table variety yields 3.4% more
than the dual-purpose (so named in the paper) variety Manzan Cacerena. The
former variety is very high in its oil content ranked at the sixth position
and the later one has a very reasonable content lacking only 1.6 % from the
lowest single purpose oil variety (Empeltre).
7. I believe that the next issue on varieties in Australia will be the
Hardy's Mammoth.

OTHER TOPICS ASSOCIATED WITH THIS SUBJECT:
1. Harvesting time.
2. Australian irrigation management of newly planted groves.

If these topics are of any interest to the contributors of this forum site,
I might have the time to address them.

Regards with best wishes for rational decisions and more better news on the
Manzanillo,
Mohamed El-Kholy

__________________________________________________ ______________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
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<pre>Mohamed El-Kholy's contribution to the Manzanillo debate is most welcome.
We would like especially to thank him for the time he has taken to give us
his distilled wisdom and experience. May we note a few comments in reponse.

1. The strong promotion in this country of the Manzanillo as a top oil
variety, particularly in the eastern states of Australia where olive groves
are springing up like mushrooms after rain, is seriously open to question.
Before we planted in late winter 1996, the Manzanillo was recommended to us
as first choice for oil ahead of other varieties, e.g. Corregiola, Paragon
(also a member of the Frantoia family), Mission.

2. Ours is far from being the only grove whose Manzanillos have yielded
woeful and uneconomic quantities of olive oil. Growers over a wide area
(with varying climates, soils, rainfalls, irrigation strategies) are
finding the same, including a big plantation, we've just been told, whose
M's have been lab-tested as having no more than 1% 'usable oil'. Let's also
assure Mohamed that these low-yielding M's are being processed on different
types of olive press, not just the Oliomio.

3. We can say again that our M's were ripe when picked, as confirmed by Mr
Caird. Fine handsome fruit from trees planted 8/96. We irrigated three
times, all pre-Christmas, but it was a wetter summer than usual. This might
make for a lower yield but surely not an awful one, and we hear tell of
people with lousy Manzanillo yields from all over the place, far apart from
one another.

4. Another question that keeps coming up is that of Manzanillo
sub-cultivars. We believe that many of us sourced M's from the same
nursery, but what about M's which have come from different suppliers? How
are they yielding? Can any O/Line experts/readers/lurkers comment on this?
Do we in fact have two or more M sub-cv's in Australia performing quite
differently?

5. Mohamed, we do feel it proper to take experts' opinions very seriously
(those of Prof Fabbri, Gonzalo and others). Not for one second do we
believe that Prof Fabbri is saying you can't get oil from Manzanillos.
Fabbri's point, we feel, is that the M is above all a pickling variety, and
that's why you should plant it - for pickling. When you choose cultivars at
the time you set up, why not get it right at the very start? And getting it
right, naturally, depends on the best advice.

6. It should also be noted that some growers here express genuine doubts
about the quality, flavour, organoleptic and keeping properties of
Manzanillo oil (ours tastes pretty bland). An oil producer we met yesterday
remarked that he finds M oil doesn't keep terribly long and lacks character
on the palate.

7. So if our M's - ours and lots of others - are incapable of producing
more than ordinary amounts of ordinary oil, aren't we all wasting our time
- and money - leaving them in the ground? It's no way to run a viable
business, is it? Surely the aim must be to produce good-sized quantities of
fresh tasting, high quality, extra virgin oil with fine organoleptic
characters, high in anti-oxidants etc., noting the date made. So here's a
big chance for Australian producers. Go for quality. The countries with
large production will doubtless beat OZ in the bulk market.

8. We note with interest Mohamed's comment that 'in traditional olive
growing regions, the existence of "not true to type" varieties in any
single grove is common, due to the huge planted numbers of trees and
propagation mistakes by nurseries'. This is perhaps understandable in
countries where olives have a long history. But you'd think that we
Johnny-Come-Latelies in Australia could do better. Ours is virtually a
tabula rasa, a virgin, no an extra virgin, industry. Mind you, it's already
a real worry that many growers with young groves, us among them, say that
they don't know for sure the varieties they've planted. And if olive people
grow more trees from their own cuttings, the problem is only compounded,
made worse. Unknowns spawning more unknowns.

9. Do appreciate, Mohamed and others with a vat of experience, that we need
to have confidence in the cultivars we plant in Australia. We need to plant
the right (and certified) cultivars for the right purposes. So if we don't
know precisely where we are at the outset of the industry, we're in some
trouble, and what will we say to the quality end of the market when it
comes looking for special oils? Delicatessens and other specialty shops,
chefs, good home cooks will want varietal oils by type (Corregiola,
Verdale, whatever...) and will search for it on the label, just like wine
buyers select a Shiraz or a Pinot, not just a 'bottle of red, mate'.


Ian & Jenny
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<pre>Ian:

I believe what you are telling us about the low yield of Manzanillo planted
in Australia. Certainly 1% "useable" (i.e. 10kg/mt or about 10.9L of oil/mt)
is very very poor - indeed lower than I've ever heard of and certainly lower
than any data (albeit not as extensive as I've seen for other CVs) I've ever
seen for Manzanillos grown elsewhere. The oil quality problems you cite are
also atypical of the Manzanillo grown here (and it appears elsewhere) -
indeed, it makes a popular oil when processed correctly (has won prizes in
various competitions). Although we don't recommend (and haven't) Manzanillo
for oil plantings here (its a pickling CV and there are better CVs for oil
yield), there is still plenty of Manzanillo oil made from older plantings
with fair oil yield of good quality.

I'm assuming that other "known" olive Cvs (e.g. Paragon, Mission, Corregiola
etc.) are performing according to their background history there. That is,
one is not seeing abnormally low oil yield and quality from those CVs. If
that is the case, then the Manzanillo (i.e. the strain) being grown there
has to be in question - it does not appear to be performing as a typical
Manzanillo. BY the way have all of the poor performing yields come from
trees from the same nursery? (note, the variety planting at the Mildura
Horticultural Research Station, Vic., planted in 1964 with CV data collected
at least through 1978 included Manzanillo along with 16 other CVs. No
mention or indication of poor performance in yield or quality is noted in
their data that I have from that project - the group would be wise to find
out about that project and review the data that emanated from it as it
relates to olive CVs, including Manzanillo performance there).

It seems to me that with such poor performance (i.e. not even close to what
should be normal - if performance were closer to the norm then cultural
practices would have to be in question), topworking ASAP would be advised.
Unfortunately this is quite expensive, not 100% successful the first time
around, and requires substantial in-season management - but it can be done.

Steve Sibbett
U.C. Farm Advisor
Phone - office 559.733.6486
Mobil 559.280.0666
FAX 559.734.2708

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian C Fraser [mailto:fraspub@albury.net.au]
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 5:03 PM
To: OliveOil@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Manzanillo


Mohamed El-Kholy's contribution to the Manzanillo debate is most welcome.
We would like especially to thank him for the time he has taken to give us
his distilled wisdom and experience. May we note a few comments in reponse.

1. The strong promotion in this country of the Manzanillo as a top oil
variety, particularly in the eastern states of Australia where olive groves
are springing up like mushrooms after rain, is seriously open to question.
Before we planted in late winter 1996, the Manzanillo was recommended to us
as first choice for oil ahead of other varieties, e.g. Corregiola, Paragon
(also a member of the Frantoia family), Mission.

2. Ours is far from being the only grove whose Manzanillos have yielded
woeful and uneconomic quantities of olive oil. Growers over a wide area
(with varying climates, soils, rainfalls, irrigation strategies) are
finding the same, including a big plantation, we've just been told, whose
M's have been lab-tested as having no more than 1% 'usable oil'. Let's also
assure Mohamed that these low-yielding M's are being processed on different
types of olive press, not just the Oliomio.

3. We can say again that our M's were ripe when picked, as confirmed by Mr
Caird. Fine handsome fruit from trees planted 8/96. We irrigated three
times, all pre-Christmas, but it was a wetter summer than usual. This might
make for a lower yield but surely not an awful one, and we hear tell of
people with lousy Manzanillo yields from all over the place, far apart from
one another.

4. Another question that keeps coming up is that of Manzanillo
sub-cultivars. We believe that many of us sourced M's from the same
nursery, but what about M's which have come from different suppliers? How
are they yielding? Can any O/Line experts/readers/lurkers comment on this?
Do we in fact have two or more M sub-cv's in Australia performing quite
differently?

5. Mohamed, we do feel it proper to take experts' opinions very seriously
(those of Prof Fabbri, Gonzalo and others). Not for one second do we
believe that Prof Fabbri is saying you can't get oil from Manzanillos.
Fabbri's point, we feel, is that the M is above all a pickling variety, and
that's why you should plant it - for pickling. When you choose cultivars at
the time you set up, why not get it right at the very start? And getting it
right, naturally, depends on the best advice.

6. It should also be noted that some growers here express genuine doubts
about the quality, flavour, organoleptic and keeping properties of
Manzanillo oil (ours tastes pretty bland). An oil producer we met yesterday
remarked that he finds M oil doesn't keep terribly long and lacks character
on the palate.

7. So if our M's - ours and lots of others - are incapable of producing
more than ordinary amounts of ordinary oil, aren't we all wasting our time
- and money - leaving them in the ground? It's no way to run a viable
business, is it? Surely the aim must be to produce good-sized quantities of
fresh tasting, high quality, extra virgin oil with fine organoleptic
characters, high in anti-oxidants etc., noting the date made. So here's a
big chance for Australian producers. Go for quality. The countries with
large production will doubtless beat OZ in the bulk market.

8. We note with interest Mohamed's comment that 'in traditional olive
growing regions, the existence of "not true to type" varieties in any
single grove is common, due to the huge planted numbers of trees and
propagation mistakes by nurseries'. This is perhaps understandable in
countries where olives have a long history. But you'd think that we
Johnny-Come-Latelies in Australia could do better. Ours is virtually a
tabula rasa, a virgin, no an extra virgin, industry. Mind you, it's already
a real worry that many growers with young groves, us among them, say that
they don't know for sure the varieties they've planted. And if olive people
grow more trees from their own cuttings, the problem is only compounded,
made worse. Unknowns spawning more unknowns.

9. Do appreciate, Mohamed and others with a vat of experience, that we need
to have confidence in the cultivars we plant in Australia. We need to plant
the right (and certified) cultivars for the right purposes. So if we don't
know precisely where we are at the outset of the industry, we're in some
trouble, and what will we say to the quality end of the market when it
comes looking for special oils? Delicatessens and other specialty shops,
chefs, good home cooks will want varietal oils by type (Corregiola,
Verdale, whatever...) and will search for it on the label, just like wine
buyers select a Shiraz or a Pinot, not just a 'bottle of red, mate'.


Ian & Jenny




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</pre>
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<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Mohamed

Thank you for your detailed observations on the fruit of the M. amongst
other things.

Our fruit of the M has unique properties as one owner has found out. His
tested MANZAN SEVILLA which came from OA were originally meant to be
"Mission" variety apparently. At a later stage they were renamed
"Manzanilla de Sevilla" as a result of testing requested by OA at the World
Germplasm Bank of Olive Cultivars in Cordoba, Spain. The owner of these
trees (around 5000) had them tested for available oil content recently and
only 1% available oil was recorded.

Ian and Jenny's trees have a similar pedigree. That is, Mission were
ordered which later turned out to be Manzanilla de Sevilla.

It would appear that this situation has apparently been repeated with some
frequency throughout the Eastern seaboard of Australia. Perhaps further.

There are a couple of major plantations that have used this M (sourced from
OA) as a significant component of said plantations. It is not known whether
they suffer this Mission/Manzanillo phenomena of little or no oil. Or, if
oil is there, whether it can be extracted by conventional means.

Steve's comments
"If that is the case, then the Manzanillo (i.e. the strain) being grown
there
has to be in question - it does not appear to be performing as a typical
Manzanillo. BY the way have all of the poor performing yields come from
trees from the same nursery? (note, the variety planting at the Mildura
Horticultural Research Station, Vic., planted in 1964 with CV data collected
at least through 1978 included Manzanillo along with 16 other CVs"

I simply don't know whether the mother trees are from Mildura but it has
been suggested they are. Certainly the M performed very well but, as I
understand the situation, no oil extraction rates were published (if they
were known at all). If this is not the case then I would love to see said
results - at the moment I merely rely on the OA reproductions of the
original mapping of fruit yield.

On another note one person bought in a mere 50kgs of fruit from 120+years
trees today. I suspect the origin of the trees was via Italy (they looked
remarkably like the Taggiasca variety) back when the golden view was metal,
not oil. That 50kg yielded a most succulent 8.5kgs of oil (nearly 10
litres). The fruit was about 80% coloured, not irrigated, harvested 5 days
ago, in an area that gets 500mm/yr of rain, generally untended for it's
life, planted on a sandy top with clay base on a draining slope facing N.
Fruit was small (about 4-6gms), elongated ovate, largish pit (about
1-1.2gms). Shall seek to identify this one and will propagate in any event.
Oil derived was peppery to the palate (initial and back), full of fruit
taste and aromas of apple and wet straw. Colour (although this is not
important) was a most exquisite deep but transparent greengold. I shall let
it settle for about 2 weeks before re-tasting with toast and salt and/or
garlic.

The other trees were harvested on the weekend were the .5 tonne ones.
Unfortunately these yielded only about 8% but the taste was fiery. Have set
same aside for blending.

Regards
</pre>
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<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>The only data I have from the Mildura Station are tree yields (2-3 trees per
CV) from '69 - '78 - they also quote some fleshit ratio figures. However,
I have their summary notes (at least I assume its their notes - it has the
Station's stamp/seal on them) and they say of the Manzanillo under test
there: "the most popular variety to date, but fruit is small and not
competitive on the market; yields are consistently good; small spreading
tree which is easily harvested; fruit matures earlier than other varieties
and oil extraction is good, making it more suited to oil extraction; several
strains of this variety have been selected". It seems to me that to make
these statements, some data must have been collected there. I'm copying this
e-mail to Phil Henry of the old Oliveholme project in Robinvale. He may have
some data from the Mildura olive variety trials (I believe Oliveholme was in
place during the test period). I also suggest the group tap his years of
experience with Manzanillo there - although it was primarily a table olive
operation, it will be invaluable. We also need to see if he ever had any of
the Manzanillos grown at Oliveholme processed into oil, and if so, I'm
hoping he will share the % oil yield?

Steve Sibbett
U.C. Farm Advisor
Phone - office 559.733.6486
Mobil 559.280.0666
FAX 559.734.2708

-----Original Message-----
From: P Caird [mailto:caird@hitech.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 4:43 AM
To: OliveOil@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Manzanillo


Mohamed

Thank you for your detailed observations on the fruit of the M. amongst
other things.

Our fruit of the M has unique properties as one owner has found out. His
tested MANZAN SEVILLA which came from OA were originally meant to be
"Mission" variety apparently. At a later stage they were renamed
"Manzanilla de Sevilla" as a result of testing requested by OA at the World
Germplasm Bank of Olive Cultivars in Cordoba, Spain. The owner of these
trees (around 5000) had them tested for available oil content recently and
only 1% available oil was recorded.

Ian and Jenny's trees have a similar pedigree. That is, Mission were
ordered which later turned out to be Manzanilla de Sevilla.

It would appear that this situation has apparently been repeated with some
frequency throughout the Eastern seaboard of Australia. Perhaps further.

There are a couple of major plantations that have used this M (sourced from
OA) as a significant component of said plantations. It is not known whether
they suffer this Mission/Manzanillo phenomena of little or no oil. Or, if
oil is there, whether it can be extracted by conventional means.

Steve's comments
"If that is the case, then the Manzanillo (i.e. the strain) being grown
there
has to be in question - it does not appear to be performing as a typical
Manzanillo. BY the way have all of the poor performing yields come from
trees from the same nursery? (note, the variety planting at the Mildura
Horticultural Research Station, Vic., planted in 1964 with CV data collected
at least through 1978 included Manzanillo along with 16 other CVs"

I simply don't know whether the mother trees are from Mildura but it has
been suggested they are. Certainly the M performed very well but, as I
understand the situation, no oil extraction rates were published (if they
were known at all). If this is not the case then I would love to see said
results - at the moment I merely rely on the OA reproductions of the
original mapping of fruit yield.

On another note one person bought in a mere 50kgs of fruit from 120+years
trees today. I suspect the origin of the trees was via Italy (they looked
remarkably like the Taggiasca variety) back when the golden view was metal,
not oil. That 50kg yielded a most succulent 8.5kgs of oil (nearly 10
litres). The fruit was about 80% coloured, not irrigated, harvested 5 days
ago, in an area that gets 500mm/yr of rain, generally untended for it's
life, planted on a sandy top with clay base on a draining slope facing N.
Fruit was small (about 4-6gms), elongated ovate, largish pit (about
1-1.2gms). Shall seek to identify this one and will propagate in any event.
Oil derived was peppery to the palate (initial and back), full of fruit
taste and aromas of apple and wet straw. Colour (although this is not
important) was a most exquisite deep but transparent greengold. I shall let
it settle for about 2 weeks before re-tasting with toast and salt and/or
garlic.

The other trees were harvested on the weekend were the .5 tonne ones.
Unfortunately these yielded only about 8% but the taste was fiery. Have set
same aside for blending.

Regards


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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Further to a recent posting of mine regarding extraction rates for
Manzanillo this year. Have just completed 1.7 tonne of black harvested
Manzanillo. They had not been irrigated for the preceding 9 weeks prior to
harvest and God spared us additional water during the same period. Oil was
extracted on our Pieralisi Fattoria and paste temperature did not exceed
25C. Yield was >18% wxw. We did not get a total available oil content done
this year after the first trial on 300kg. Fruit was sourced from trees
supplied by Olives Australia, 5 years old.

This is the same oil Judy Ridgeway adjudged to be superior to our award
winning Frantoio.

I will be doing approx 500kg (grower thinks) of Manzanillo from older trees
that were sourced from Sunraysia next week. Results to be posted.

Regards
Peter Caird
www.victorianolivegroves.com
0418 392 157
</pre>
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<pre>Victorian Olive Groves is seeking table grade Manzanillos x 10 tonne.
Please contact 03 5441 5388 or email vog@...

Regards
www.victorianolivegroves.com

{Moderator, Presumably the preference is for Australian sourced fruit}
</pre>
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