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<pre>Andrew and Val:

There are more than two factors involved in determining the optimum tree
spacing.

I agree that 1 & 2 are the quality of the soil and the rainfall (or
irrigation). Some areas in Tunisia for example with only 250 mm of annual
rainfall have trees at densities of less than 30 per ha.

The next one (No 3) is the price of the land. Many of the ideas for
super high density plantings coming from Europe are based on very high
priced land. Even stoney highsides in Umbria cost more than Lire 7,000,000
per ha. (Currently $Oz5,600) and discussions (sounds better than gossip) in
the local barbers shop suggested that on better land the price would be
three time that. I don't know what you paid at Mypolonga but I doubt it
would be that much.Certainly equvalent land in th South East would be a lot
cheaper as it is not paying a premium for proximity to Adelaide.
The significance is that with high prices you need to get a quick
return. The higher the density the quicker the return but the final yield
after 10 or 15 year may be the same. In Oz with cheaper land you could end
up spending more on the trees for a super high density planting than the
land. I don't think this will be a profitable idea - needs testing.
Well that's the economic theory but as we say in our book local
farmers in this part of Umbria don't seem to be impressed and stick to 6 m
X 6 m as convenient even if peak production takes longer.Our rainfall is
about 850mm which is similar to Mypolonga??

No 4 is what sort of olive orchard do you want? In an article for
the Kondinin group magazine (Farming Ahead) a couple of years ago we wrote
about agro-olives as an option for Oz farmers. Like agro-forestry but
better. A modern version of the traditional mixed farming of the
Mediterranean. I goes against the grain of thought in Oz at the moment
where everyone seems to be rushing into the specialist groves but that
system might not suit everyone - particularly hobby farmers or
smallholders.

Cheers Brian Chatterton.
</pre>
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<pre>Brian, Andrew, Val etal

All the things mentioned to date are important. Density is dependant upon
many variables including price of land, desired outcomes, method of harvest
etc. Do not forget the size of yourself as another variable.

The grove that we purchased in 97 was on a 6x5 grid and the trees were 20
years old. They had a vertical stem of perhaps 500mm before the frame was
formed. And a very sturdy frame it was. The grove was planted by an
Italian gentleman of great perspicacity and he kept the trees to a maximum
height of about 11 feet (sorry to be mixing imperial and metric). Bruno
(the original owner) was 5'2" and his wife (Rosa) about 5' tall. He was
quite a solid 5'2" however (about 12 stone) and the framework supported him
excellently as he dashed about from limb to limb carefully stripping the
fruit off the tree in no time flat. He could reach every last pinnacle on
the tree and Rosa was able to quickly strip the bottom of the tree whilst he
was on top of his inverted unbrella frame of the tree.

I am about 6' high and weigh about 10 stone. Consequently I let the canopy
get larger (after we had purchased the property) and was able to bounce
about with some agility on the same framework. 'Twas fun for the past three
seasons and I will have to do it for at least the next 2 or 3.

However, do not let the romantic notion run away with you. It is bloody
hard work and quite gruelling to harvest (at say 50kgs/tree) even on a
moderate sized tree.

Think mechanical please. For your own future sake!

Regards




----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Chatterton <tn7685@orvienet.it>
To: <OliveOil@onelist.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 8:47 PM
Subject: [OliveOil] Tree spacing


> From: tn7685@orvienet.it (Brian Chatterton)
>
> Andrew and Val:
>
> There are more than two factors involved in determining the optimum tree
> spacing.
>
> I agree that 1 & 2 are the quality of the soil and the rainfall
(or
> irrigation). Some areas in Tunisia for example with only 250 mm of annual
> rainfall have trees at densities of less than 30 per ha.
>
> The next one (No 3) is the price of the land. Many of the ideas
for
> super high density plantings coming from Europe are based on very high
> priced land. Even stoney highsides in Umbria cost more than Lire 7,000,000
> per ha. (Currently $Oz5,600) and discussions (sounds better than gossip)
in
> the local barbers shop suggested that on better land the price would be
> three time that. I don't know what you paid at Mypolonga but I doubt it
> would be that much.Certainly equvalent land in th South East would be a
lot
> cheaper as it is not paying a premium for proximity to Adelaide.
> The significance is that with high prices you need to get a quick
> return. The higher the density the quicker the return but the final yield
> after 10 or 15 year may be the same. In Oz with cheaper land you could end
> up spending more on the trees for a super high density planting than the
> land. I don't think this will be a profitable idea - needs testing.
> Well that's the economic theory but as we say in our book local
> farmers in this part of Umbria don't seem to be impressed and stick to 6 m
> X 6 m as convenient even if peak production takes longer.Our rainfall is
> about 850mm which is similar to Mypolonga??
>
> No 4 is what sort of olive orchard do you want? In an article for
> the Kondinin group magazine (Farming Ahead) a couple of years ago we wrote
> about agro-olives as an option for Oz farmers. Like agro-forestry but
> better. A modern version of the traditional mixed farming of the
> Mediterranean. I goes against the grain of thought in Oz at the moment
> where everyone seems to be rushing into the specialist groves but that
> system might not suit everyone - particularly hobby farmers or
> smallholders.
>
> Cheers Brian Chatterton.
>
>
>
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</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>>From: Kent Hallett <kenth@rbe.net.au>
>I have come across planting spacings for non trelissed trees that range
>from 6x5 to 12x12m. I finally came to the conclusion that there are 2
>main factors. How good your growing conditions are, and how much effort
>you want to put in to looking after the trees.

>From: tn7685@orvienet.it (Brian Chatterton)
>Even stoney highsides in Umbria cost more than Lire 7,000,000
>per ha. (Currently $Oz5,600) and discussions (sounds better than gossip) in
>the local barbers shop suggested that on better land the price would be
>three time that.

Here in Liguria, for places refused by wildhogs, we are at 15-18,000/mq
(150-180 Mln/ha, but lots are always very small: no one has a whole ha).
Our ancestors, since XI-XII c., build terraces along steep hills, so it's
difficult to fix a common pattern for spacing; moreover, our trees were
very high, and they "fight" rather than "grow".
However a 30 sqm/tree was the average; modern plants are wider (45-50
sqm/tree).
I think it's good for trees, if a lot of them is older than 500-600 years...

Using irrigation an higher density can reduce costs/tree for pipes and
assistence, but it's important to avoid an excess of water: it can start a
lot of diseases.
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Like that touch Marco. For trees aged 500-600 years more space might be
necessary.

White Australia has been here a mere 200 years (if you disregard earlier
Dutch views of the coast). Black Australia on the other hand has been here
40000 years but, unfortunately from one perspective, they didn't have olive
trees.

As I may be here for another 40 years maximum I have no great burning
ambition to worry about these things too much.

The olive tree is rather humbling really.

Regards


----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
To: <OliveOil@onelist.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Tree spacing


> From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
>
> >From: Kent Hallett <kenth@rbe.net.au>
> >I have come across planting spacings for non trelissed trees that range
> >from 6x5 to 12x12m. I finally came to the conclusion that there are 2
> >main factors. How good your growing conditions are, and how much effort
> >you want to put in to looking after the trees.
>
> >From: tn7685@orvienet.it (Brian Chatterton)
> >Even stoney highsides in Umbria cost more than Lire 7,000,000
> >per ha. (Currently $Oz5,600) and discussions (sounds better than gossip)
in
> >the local barbers shop suggested that on better land the price would be
> >three time that.
>
> Here in Liguria, for places refused by wildhogs, we are at 15-18,000/mq
> (150-180 Mln/ha, but lots are always very small: no one has a whole ha).
> Our ancestors, since XI-XII c., build terraces along steep hills, so it's
> difficult to fix a common pattern for spacing; moreover, our trees were
> very high, and they "fight" rather than "grow".
> However a 30 sqm/tree was the average; modern plants are wider (45-50
> sqm/tree).
> I think it's good for trees, if a lot of them is older than 500-600
years...
>
> Using irrigation an higher density can reduce costs/tree for pipes and
> assistence, but it's important to avoid an excess of water: it can start a
> lot of diseases.
>
>
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</pre>
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<pre>With your 6x5 spacing (with solid vertical 1/2metre stem) established by
previous owners Bruno and Rosa 20 years ago, have you been able to machine
harvest?

We are using a larger spacing than this, but I note that 6x5 spacing has
been used for the large Coonalbyn olive oil project near Adelaide
(eventually 165,000 trees).


Andrew
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Not a chance unfortunately unless a mini-harvestor is designed that can
squeak down the aisles. I mentioned this to the new owners who are planting
out a further 30 acres and they move to greater spacing.

Regards
----- Original Message -----
From: <Andrew.Petherbridge@health.gov.au>
To: <OliveOil@onelist.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Tree spacing


> From: Andrew.Petherbridge@health.gov.au
>
> With your 6x5 spacing (with solid vertical 1/2metre stem) established by
> previous owners Bruno and Rosa 20 years ago, have you been able to machine
> harvest?
>
> We are using a larger spacing than this, but I note that 6x5 spacing has
> been used for the large Coonalbyn olive oil project near Adelaide
> (eventually 165,000 trees).
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
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>
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> need - quick, easy, and FREE click
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</pre>
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<pre>Not a chance to mechanically harvest 6x5.

I wonder how they are going to manage harvesting Coonalpyn's 165,000 trees
at 6x5 in twenty years? Maybe the trees wont be as vigorous growing on
largely flattened sand dunes? I don't know.
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Has anyone experienced spacing trees intensely at planting say 6x4 or closer
with the intention of removing the main frame of every second tree when the
tree canopy touches at around year 8-10. and letting it regrow with pruning
to shape.?
I understand that as the olive can copice this practice can continue for
many years.
A sound idea where area is a consideration plus a reduction in capital
irrigation costs if it works.
Neville Burt
----- Original Message -----
From: <Andrew.Petherbridge@health.gov.au>
To: <OliveOil@onelist.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Tree spacing


> From: Andrew.Petherbridge@health.gov.au
>
>
> Not a chance to mechanically harvest 6x5.
>
> I wonder how they are going to manage harvesting Coonalpyn's 165,000 trees
> at 6x5 in twenty years? Maybe the trees wont be as vigorous growing on
> largely flattened sand dunes? I don't know.
>
>
>
>
>
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</pre>
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<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Neville,

Dr Michael Burr (vice Pres. Australian Olives Association) has a trial plot
in Adelaide (?) that has row spacings of 3x2!!
The idea is that you grow the trees on a trellis, a bit like growing wine
grapes, and "fillet" the new growth along the wire and achieve more even
ripening of the fruit. Essentially it's a bit like canopy management in wine
grapes using a Scott Henry or Geneva double curtain system. I am trialing a
small area on my property to see what happens. Michael suggests that there
are mechanical harvesters to pick the fruit using this system.

If you are "lurking" out there Michael please correct my interpretation if
incorrect.

Regards,

Phil B
</pre>
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