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<pre>Professor Fabbri:

Very pleasing to have your comments on our Australian predicament. We
believe that this debate on the merits of the Manzanillo for Australian
conditions and circumstances is proving very valuable. It's a young
industry here, and there has already been much hype expressed about its
future. We need a longer view and ongoing research, don't we? Some aspects
of our industry are tending to be rather gung-ho, as they say.

Around the globe - and certainly in Australia and NZ - there are clearly
very stong opinions about the worth of Manzanillo as an oil olive. Recent
testing in SA seems to cast doubt on the oil's organoleptic qualities - and
its flavour, which is described as bland or ok for blending, yet this flies
in the face of what we are informed are winning places for M oil in
international comps, big yields etc. How is this so, do you think? Modest
yields - or bigger yields of a bland oil extracted by 'lots of tricks' and
perhaps because of very ripe fruit - hardly seem the way to go. Certainly
not economic if you're trying to run a business; and that's what we are
trying to do above and beyond our love for good oil and well pickled fruit,
both of which are among life's great joys. The Mediterranean influence on
food in this country has been significant and very beneficial, we believe.

We note your statement that Manzanillo is not to be chosen for oil. Would
you care to explain why. As previously observed, it is being strongly
promoted by some here because it is supposed to be good for oil, or at the
very least a good dual purpose olive, whatever that really means. Your
point is that olives should really be planted for one or the other, isn't
it?

Another point that has been coming up is reference to various different
sub-cv's of Manzanillo. What's known about these? Can they reveal the same
DNA, yet have different characteristics as oil or eating olives?

In regard to your question about who advised us to 'plant a table olive cv
to produce oil', this came from one of Australia's leading nurseries from
whom we sought advice as to the best olives to plant for oil. We weren't
interested in olives for pickling. Best wishes.

Ian & Jenny
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>Dear Ian,
>nothing can fully explain the failure of your orchard in producing so little
>oil, but the concurrence of many negative factors, at least from the scant
>information we have. In the first place, who adviced you to plant a table
>olive
>cv to produce oil? That is the first drawback, but of course the
>Manzanillo can
>still produce in a range of 14-18% oil, or little less, in the adequate
>conditions. Secondly, the orchard is young, and if it rained a lot it may have
>concurred in favouring vegetation as a preferrred sink for assimilates. Third,
>you harvested about one month earlier than is customary in Cordoba, Spain, in
>similar environmental conditions. I would say that, being the conditions
>wetter
>than in the average andalusian olive orchard, you should have delayed harvest,
>rather than anticipate it; this can account for several percentage points, say
>up to 8-10. More I can't say, if I don't have more information; certainly, the
>orchard is not to be uprooted. If the low productivity continues (say in the
>range of 10-12%), you may consider the possibility of topworking with pure oil
>cvs. Manzanillo is among the best table cvs in the world, but is not to be
>chosen for oil. But 0.1% is really too small a figure to blame the cultivar.
>
>--
>Prof. Andrea Fabbri
>Dipartimento di Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale
>Università di Parma
>Parco Area delle Scienze 11/A - 43100 Parma
>0521/905974 (905567 Alternative)
>0521/905403 Fax
>
>
>
>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To see more olive related sites visit: http://www.egroups.com/links/OliveOil
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</pre>
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<pre>>Another point that has been coming up is reference to various different
>sub-cv's of Manzanillo. What's known about these? Can they reveal the same
>DNA, yet have different characteristics as oil or eating olives?

It will appear very soon in the journal Euphitica the analysis of 56
olive-tree cultivars in Malaga (Spain) that correspond to 22
different varieties using molecular markers based in DNA.

Among the varieties we have differentiated, you can find Manzanilla
sevillana (which is usually called outside Spain 'Manzanillo'),
Aloreña (that is also called manzanillo), morisco (also called
manzanilla prieta), and zorzaleño (also called manzanillo).

You can see the nightmare. All these but morisco are use for table
olives, although you can obtain some oil, although the productivity
is lower than other varieties.

We have seen that olive-tree varieties used for table olives use to
cluster in a dendrogram, but we have not determined wich genes are
involved in this characteristic.

Gonzalo
--
================================================== ==============
M. Gonzalo CLAROS, Ph.D. claros@uma.es
Dpt. Biologia Molecular y Bioquimica claros@cica.es
Facultad de Ciencias Fax: (34) 95 213 20 00
Universidad de Malaga
E-29071 Malaga (Spain) http://www.nitrogeno.uma.es/FMP/
</pre>
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<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>I have said:

Among the varieties we have differentiated, you can find Manzanilla
sevillana (which is usually called outside Spain 'Manzanillo'),
Aloreña (that is also called manzanillo), morisco (also called
manzanilla prieta), and zorzaleño (also called manzanillo).

And I would like to add:

I also would like to explain that the name "MAnzanillo" means "small
apple" due to the shape of the olives: they are nearly spheric and
look like samll apples instead of other more oblong shapes.

That's all folks!

Gonzalo

--
================================================== ==============
M. Gonzalo CLAROS, Ph.D. claros@uma.es
Dpt. Biologia Molecular y Bioquimica claros@cica.es
Facultad de Ciencias Fax: (34) 95 213 20 00
Universidad de Malaga
E-29071 Malaga (Spain) http://www.nitrogeno.uma.es/FMP/
</pre>
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<pre>Gonzalo has explained the varietal situation as concerns Manzanilla; I must say
that the nightmare is not worse than with many other popular olive cultivars.
In Europe we trust traditions, and when a cv. is considered table, we restrain
from
using it for oil. Being a spanish cultivar, we must let the spaniards speak.
They
are the first to consider Manzanilla as a table cultivar (not a double purpose),
and thus they class it in their books; this means that it is not suited for oil,
although of course all olive trees can produce oil. It may be for the low oil
content, or for its quality, or both. Even the recent and highly reputed spanish
books on olive cultivation agree in considering the cv as a pure table one.
Guerrero, Nueva Olivicoltura: “... relatively good production of oil.” Barranco
et
al., El Cultivo del Olivo: “ ... acceptable oil content.” This means, to me: if
you
don’t want to pickle, or part of the fruits is too small or damaged, you can
still
extract oil from the olives. But nobody plants Manzanilla for oil in Spain, or
in
Italy. That’s why I asked: who adviced you? The problem is that the english
speaking world is just that, english speaking, and reading, and does not like
other
languages; that means that whatever is written in english has an extremely
greater
audience that what is written in other, namely latin, languages. I am referring
to
the famous Davis Manual. I am not going to give judgements on it, but I know
that
from the intentions of its authors it was intended to be a simple and easy to
read
handbook, based on California conditions and for California growers, rather than
a
comprehensive and thorough treatise. This can be evinced from the quite quick
engagement with many fundamental aspects of olive biology and cultivation
techniques. This means that here and there some aspects, being hurriedly dealt
with, can be misleading for the average reader. It is the case of Manzanilla as
an
oil producer. The 20.3 % value comes from and Hartmann et al. booklet, who in
turn
had this data from other, commercial, sources, which were not his own. In which
conditions, what germplasm, what climate, extraction, etc, provided the results
were carefully measured? As a matter of fact, to my knowledge, nobody else has
reported similar data, also because very few researchers would have found
interesting to investigate the oil content of a table cultivar. Even the very
recent handbook of Carlo Costa (in english), made for South Africa, indicates
oil
production of Manzanilla as “medium to low”.
I don’t want to appear too parochial, but most of scientifical and technical
knowledge on olive is in the Mediterranean, and austral growers should make an
effort to scan also the literature and experience that has accumulated here for
centuries, although, on our side, we should make our efforts to make available
for
the english speaking world what we have in store.
</pre>
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<pre>Group:

As one editor of the "famous Davis manual" I need to respond. Prof. Fabbri
is quite right - The "Olive Production Manual", published by the University
of California, is a publication that was written as a "practical, user's
handbook" for new and established olive growers in California's hot, arid
climate. There was (and is) no intention for the manual to be or replace
in-depth text dealing with the complex physiology or biology of olive - it
is for on-farm grower use, not an educational text. As Prof. Fabbri
mentioned, it seems that, due to a dearth of other English language
publications dealing with practical olive culture, our "Olive Production
Manual" is being used as a "stand alone" guide in English speaking areas
other than California. As mentioned many times in many locations, California
information needs to be used with caution (certainly adjustment) outside of
California. This last sentence applies to any distant source of information
(including California, Italy, Spain, Israel) - local experience, developed
with an understanding of others' knowledge, will ultimately prevail.

As far as the cv "Manzanillo" is concerned, California has never considered
or recommended this as strictly an oil or dual purpose cv (here or
elsewhere) - oil yield is simply to marginal and per acre oil yields cannot
compete economically with table fruit revenue from the same yield. For
Californians that are interested in strictly oil production, we know about
and have suggested "Mission", a cv with a long history for oil and table
fruit here. "Mission" is one we know, from our experience growing it for
many years, produces fairly good oil yield, has a reasonable oil quality,
and can produce (when farmed correctly) fairly good yields. It may not be
the best, but it is one we know the most about as to how to grow it and what
to expect. Interestingly we, like others, have several foreign experts
recommending any number of other oil cvs to potential growers. We will
simply have to see how those cvs perform as most of those experts and cvs
have no production history or long time experience in California - certainly
risky. Having dealt with and developed olives in other countries, I quickly
learned that because one cv simply performs well in one country (climatic
district) does not mean it will perform in a similar manner, in a different
climatic setting elsewhere - indeed, it probably won't.

Contrary to popular notion, California has researched olives for table and
oil purposes for some time under California conditions. Attached are two
items the group should find of interest demonstrating California's history
of work on olive cvs and olive oil.

All of this said, I have a request if you are not tired of reading. Olive
fly, Bactrocera oleae, has been found in the Los Angeles area. We are trying
to eliminate it from the olive growing districts of California and, among
many other things, have prepared an informational brochure for growers. What
we need are good, publication quality slides for the brochure - an adult,
larvae and/with larval damage in the fruit, and a female ovipositing. If
anyone has such slides they would be willing to share (I don't like sharing
slides either), please contact me at: sibbett@lightspeed.net I can pay for
FedEx (or the like) posting and return (I will return these). Thanks for any
consideration.


Steve Sibbett
U.C. Farm Advisor
Phone - office 559.733.6486
Mobil 559.280.0666
FAX 559.734.2708

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Fabbri [mailto:fabbri@ipruniv.cce.unipr.it]
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:56 AM
To: OliveOil@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Manzanillos - Prof Fabbri


Gonzalo has explained the varietal situation as concerns Manzanilla; I must
say
that the nightmare is not worse than with many other popular olive
cultivars.
In Europe we trust traditions, and when a cv. is considered table, we
restrain from
using it for oil. Being a spanish cultivar, we must let the spaniards speak.
They
are the first to consider Manzanilla as a table cultivar (not a double
purpose),
and thus they class it in their books; this means that it is not suited for
oil,
although of course all olive trees can produce oil. It may be for the low
oil
content, or for its quality, or both. Even the recent and highly reputed
spanish
books on olive cultivation agree in considering the cv as a pure table one.
Guerrero, Nueva Olivicoltura: "... relatively good production of oil."
Barranco et
al., El Cultivo del Olivo: " ... acceptable oil content." This means, to me:
if you
don't want to pickle, or part of the fruits is too small or damaged, you can
still
extract oil from the olives. But nobody plants Manzanilla for oil in Spain,
or in
Italy. That's why I asked: who adviced you? The problem is that the english
speaking world is just that, english speaking, and reading, and does not
like other
languages; that means that whatever is written in english has an extremely
greater
audience that what is written in other, namely latin, languages. I am
referring to
the famous Davis Manual. I am not going to give judgements on it, but I know
that
from the intentions of its authors it was intended to be a simple and easy
to read
handbook, based on California conditions and for California growers, rather
than a
comprehensive and thorough treatise. This can be evinced from the quite
quick
engagement with many fundamental aspects of olive biology and cultivation
techniques. This means that here and there some aspects, being hurriedly
dealt
with, can be misleading for the average reader. It is the case of Manzanilla
as an
oil producer. The 20.3 % value comes from and Hartmann et al. booklet, who
in turn
had this data from other, commercial, sources, which were not his own. In
which
conditions, what germplasm, what climate, extraction, etc, provided the
results
were carefully measured? As a matter of fact, to my knowledge, nobody else
has
reported similar data, also because very few researchers would have found
interesting to investigate the oil content of a table cultivar. Even the
very
recent handbook of Carlo Costa (in english), made for South Africa,
indicates oil
production of Manzanilla as "medium to low".
I don't want to appear too parochial, but most of scientifical and technical
knowledge on olive is in the Mediterranean, and austral growers should make
an
effort to scan also the literature and experience that has accumulated here
for
centuries, although, on our side, we should make our efforts to make
available for
the english speaking world what we have in store.



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------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~ Life is healthier with OliveOil ~~~~~~~
------------------------------------------------------------------------


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>> Being a spanish cultivar, we must let the spaniards speak. They
>are the first to consider Manzanilla as a table cultivar (not a
>double purpose),
>and thus they class it in their books; this means that it is not
>suited for oil,
>although of course all olive trees can produce oil. It may be for the low oil
>content, or for its quality, or both.

As far as I know, cv for table olives are used because the olives can
be eaten. If you try to prepare table olives with other cultivars,
the taste is no good.
Addiotionally, the oil production percentage use to be lower than
other varieties (at least in Spain) and the organoleptic properties
are not so good than oils prepared with other varieties.

However, you can find oil from manzanillo and others in Spain when
the production is very high and you have an excess of table olives.

>Guerrero, Nueva Olivicoltura: “... relatively good production of
>oil.” Barranco et
>al., El Cultivo del Olivo: “ ... acceptable oil content.” This
>means, to me: if you
>don’t want to pickle, or part of the fruits is too small or damaged,
>you can still
>extract oil from the olives.

That's right

> But nobody plants Manzanilla for oil in Spain,

This is right too. Usually, you can find in old orchards that among
the olive-trees for oil, you have one or two trees for table olives
that are harvested by the farmer for its own consumption.

> It is the case of Manzanilla as an
>oil producer. The 20.3 % value comes from and Hartmann et al. booklet,

Producers use to say me that the production use to rise the 18% in
Spain, while other are over 22%

Gonzalo
--
================================================== ==============
M. Gonzalo CLAROS, Ph.D. claros@uma.es
Dpt. Biologia Molecular y Bioquimica claros@cica.es
Facultad de Ciencias Fax: (34) 95 213 20 00
Universidad de Malaga
E-29071 Malaga (Spain) http://www.nitrogeno.uma.es/FMP/
</pre>
</td></tr></table>