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<pre>Peter

>While the delay at the oil mill does cause problems with the olives, I
>disagree that going to modern methods is not always the best path to take.

I agree with your statement above.


>A large number of the high quality (and high priced) oil on the market are
>from small mills that do traditional methods.

Traditional methods are always high cost due to the extensive labor and the
high maintenance required to operate the mill. It requires significantly
more people to operate the mill at a lower production yield, thus the
average cost per liter of olive oil produced is much higher. That is why
the selling price of the olive oil is higher.

>Crushing with the
>traditional stone millstones (some bottles have pictures of such stones or
>the method is mentioned on the label) and pressed with an upright (usually
>hydraulic) press, giving "cold pressed" oil.

Don't the heavy granite stones generate heat due to pressure on the olives
during the 30 minutes crushing period? We got rid of ours back in 1972,
when we got our first continuos plant. Our traditional mill was one of a
handful in the region at that time. However, we introduced the separator
"DeLaval" back in the early 50s.

>Most of the people I've talked to in my research prefer the cold pressed
>oil to oil produced at centrifugal mills. I think as modern bulk produced
oil
>erodes the market of the traditionally produced oil, taste preferences
shift
>towards the modern oil as it is the only oil people are then accustomed
too.
>I found the oils produced at the traditional mills to be much more
flavorful and
>exciting than the oil from the modern mills I visited. I think it would
>be to the benefit of all that some traditional mills continue to produce,
>rather than switching over to the centrifugal process. Proper exposure
>and sales could allow them to produce a quality product.

You might be right. I currently have a bottle of olive oil from Lebanon
that was produced using the traditional method. I like it, but I prefer the
oil from the new methods. There might be a few mills around that still
produce the best olive oil using the traditional method, but they are very
few. As far as I know the Italian manufacturers quit making the vertical
presses back in the 70s (you might recall Barakane and the old Rapanelli
presses). I would love to see a statistics about the sale of "New or Used
(remanufactured)" traditional mills vs. "New or Used (remanufactured)'
continuos plants. If anyone on this list have this information, please post
it.

Peter, since you have visited some of these old mills with the traditional
method I am sure you have difference the difference in the cleanliness of
the mill itself compared to the new mills. What guaranties do you have that
the mats were cleaned properly after each use? What about the wells they
keep the oil in, are they perfectly clean? In many of these mills they
don't even have a separator, so they keep the oil in settling tanks to
separate the vegetable water.

As you can see I am a full supporter of the new methods because of the
overall advantages. Mill owners in Jordan compete in providing the best
quality service at reasonable cost and fast production rate.

Sincerely
Jamal Sadoun

P.S. Dear members, even though I love the recipes being posted on the list,
a few members have complained to me, as the list manager, that the recent
posts have been dominantly recipes. May I suggest that if you are planning
to post a recipe that you start the subject line with (Recipe: then the
name of the food). Thank you.
</pre>
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<pre>Jamal,

When I visited some traditional oil presses in the north of Syria it was the
first time that I had been exposed to olive oil processing. Since that time
I have learned much and I would have to say now that what I saw then was not
pressing to high quality hygienic standards! Far from it.

Mats did not appear to be cleaned on a regular basis, the workers looked as
if they worked with automotive oil and were covered with it, the pits
....... Well they were something else and the storage drums were pretty
terrible. Waste was thrown out the back of the shed and the black water was
allowed to run down the gutters of the street and into the river.

Mind you the oil tasted terrific!

Phil

p.s. what to do with the waste products is well worth a new discussion
subject.
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<pre>Phil

That is exactly my point. The situation you described below is typical of
the old traditional mills found around. I wouldn't even taste the oil at a
mill like that. However, I am sure there is some traditional mills that
adhere to strict hygienic conditions.

One mill owner in Ateel, the West Bank, both a new decanter and malaxing
machine a couple of years ago from us to replace his old Toscane vertical
presses. He was amazed at the labor savings he realized. Before he needed
at least seven to ten people to run his mill, now he run it by himself.
Much cleaner and nicer operation. It only makes sense, especially in high
cost of labor countries.

Jamal

>
> Jamal,
>
> When I visited some traditional oil presses in the north of Syria it was
the
> first time that I had been exposed to olive oil processing. Since that
time
> I have learned much and I would have to say now that what I saw then was
not
> pressing to high quality hygienic standards! Far from it.
>
> Mats did not appear to be cleaned on a regular basis, the workers looked
as
> if they worked with automotive oil and were covered with it, the pits
> ....... Well they were something else and the storage drums were pretty
> terrible. Waste was thrown out the back of the shed and the black water
was
> allowed to run down the gutters of the street and into the river.
>
> Mind you the oil tasted terrific!
>
> Phil
>
> p.s. what to do with the waste products is well worth a new discussion
> subject.
>
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</pre>
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<pre>Sadoun,

On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Sadoun wrote:

> Peter, since you have visited some of these old mills with the traditional
> method I am sure you have difference the difference in the cleanliness of
> the mill itself compared to the new mills. What guaranties do you have that
> the mats were cleaned properly after each use? What about the wells they
> keep the oil in, are they perfectly clean? In many of these mills they
> don't even have a separator, so they keep the oil in settling tanks to
> separate the vegetable water.

I would agree that at a number of the traditional mills the cleanliness
isn't the best it could be. However, being spotlessly clean doesn't
necessarily mean that you put out a "better" product. I've seen a number
of installations (apple cider mills in Michigan for example) that put out
a superior product without being absolutely spotless (the same for some
oil mills). Compared to the traditional mills, I find the oil from modern
mills to be somewhat bland and tasteless.

Further, people pressing at the traditional mills seem to pay more
attention to the olives being pressed (this is just my research
observation). At the modern mills I saw different varieties of olives
being pressed together, while at the traditional mills, people seemed to
press a particular variety without mixing them.

Also, certain traditional practices occur at the traditional mills that
are not (and can't due to time constraints) done at modern mills. I've
been told of people boiling the olives prior to pressing, drying the
olives prior to pressing, boiling and drying, and even smoking the olives
prior to pressing. Each of these methods imparts a particular flavor to
the oil. Such traditional methods are disappearing along with the
traditional mills.

> As you can see I am a full supporter of the new methods because of the
> overall advantages. Mill owners in Jordan compete in providing the best
> quality service at reasonable cost and fast production rate.

I have to disagree with you. While I use modern produced oil for cooking,
baking, etc., if I'm eating something where I want to taste the flavor of
the oil, like a salad or drizzled over pasta, I use traditionally produced
oil. I'm not put off by the fact that it may not have been produced in an
totally spotless mill. Hopefully, some traditional mills will survive the
"McDonald's-izing" trend of faster and more modern being "better."

Peter Warnock



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</pre>
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<pre>On Wed, 11 Aug 1999, Phil Bramley wrote:

> p.s. what to do with the waste products is well worth a new discussion
> subject.
>

Phil,

I've got a lot of information on the use of olive pressing waste products
(a whole dissertations worth in fact). While ancient authors (Columella,
Cato, and others) list a number of uses for the amurca or lees (the liquid
wastes), many aren't exactly applicable for the modern day (smoothing out
plaster floors, oiling leather, etc). I have found modern references to
using the liquid waste as fertilizer for the olive orchards.

For the solid wastes (jift in Arabic, jefet in Hebrew), there are a large
number of uses. The main use is as a fuel, both domestic (traditional)
and industrial (traditional and modern). Jift burns very well, gives a
steady, high heat, and burns almost completely to ash (bad for me as an
archaeologist, no remains to excavate!). It is used commercially as a
fuel for pottery kilns especially. There are companies in Jordan now
making charcoal from it, and their bags make a point out of saying it is
"olive jift charcoal." Burns great too.

Other uses include use as fertilizer (both the jift and the ash from burnt
jift), animal feed (being experimented with), and construction mix (for
mortar, an ancient use).

Very little pressing wastes are thrown away in Jordan, and I suspect, this
was true for antiquity as well.

Peter Warnock



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</pre>
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<pre>> While I use modern produced oil for cooking, baking, etc.,
> if I'm eating something where I want to taste the flavor of
> the oil, like a salad or drizzled over pasta, I use traditionally produced
> oil.
>
> Peter Warnock

Pete,

Depending on the quality of oil you use, the above might be ok. However,
next time you, or anyone on this list, is in Jordan, I would like to invite
you to visit our Mill in Samar, Jordan. The best time to visit, if you want
to taste our olive oil, is early November when we press our own olives. The
Sadoun family have a few hundred acres of mostly "Baladi" olives (that
yields around 25-35% oil). All of it planted by my grandfather from
1925-1945.

Then you will judge. I guarantee you, you have never tasted such an Oil
with rich flavor (of course everybody says that, but you have to try it to
believe it).

Sincerely
Jamal Sadoun
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<pre>Peter,

Many thanks for that posting.

I wonder how much anti-oxidant end up in the waste pulp? Our machine, a
continuous flow centrifugal process, does not use any extra water and the
waste is separated and diverted out the 'back'. I understand that when
operating the machine (we purchased the machine after this year's harvest)
the trick is to minimise the amount of oil pushed out with the waste.

A friend of ours (invents and manufacturers tree shakers and is working on a
prototype olive shaker) mentioned that the waste is quite flammable and one
must be careful if spreading the waste around olive trees as a mulch.

I read in an Olives Australia newsletter that a large olive waste
re-processing centre had been built in Oman. Do you know anything about it?

Regards

Phil
</pre>
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<pre>Reading the discussion about traditional vs.continuous, I remember what I
saw in Tunisia some year ago. Just as Phil wrote:
+AD4- Mats did not appear to be cleaned on a regular basis, the workers looked
as if they worked with automotive oil and were covered with it ... Mind you
the oil tasted terrific+ACE- +ADw-
And it also smelled awful.
This is not only a question of cleanliness of the mats and so on, but a
question of ignorance about what happens to the olives and the oil in these
conditions. The problem with the traditional column-type presses is that you
cannot clean the mats after each process. So if they pressed rancid olives
before yours, you can do what you want, your oil will not be perfect. And
imagine what happens to the mats during the rest, because rarely the presses
do a 24 by 24 hour turn. But if we discuss the influence of the press on the
quality of the oil we must be aware that pressing is only ONE step in the
process. It starts with growing the olives, then harvest, then follows the
VERY important storage, the grinding, then stirring ('gramolatura'),
pressing and separating and finally the storage of the oil itself. During
each of these steps errors can deteriorate quality. The most sensible steps
are storage of the olives (short, dry, cool), grinding (as slow as possible:
it's not the pressure that heats the olives but speed plus pressure),
stirring of the olive paste (not to short and not to long, not to warm and
not to cold) and the type of pressing. I tried the traditional way (10 years
ago here in Tuscany we had still many traditional presses), the 'modern'
three-phase presses (output is oil, water, and the solid 'sansa') and the
last development, the two-phase separators. In my neighbourhood we have one
press of each type, but I can assure you that the best quality ever comes
out of the two-phase separator (I think it is an Alfa-Laval). The latter
does not require the addition of water to the paste and thus keeps many of
the fragrances that normally go away with the waste-water. Indeed, the oil
is so tasty that some people that are not used to such a fresh and tasty
oil, don't appreciate it because it is too strong. We love it and for some
week we eat lots of things with only fresh olive oil, for instance potatoes
in their jackets, salt and oil, nothing else (mmmh, delicious+ACE-). Anyway
after a few months the taste 'normalises, but this oil can be stocked very
long because of its rich content of polifenolics and vitamin E. We have
tried to store it for more than 3 years (from November 1995) in a dark
cupboard at normal temperature (up to 28-30 degrees Celsius in summer) and
it is still slightly green, smells good (it tastes a bit more 'fatty' than
before) and
is not yet rancid. Of course this is only a test, nobody should keep olive
oil more than two years.
The waste in this system is only one component, a kind of liquid pudding
that can be used as a fertiliser which contains nearly no fat, so it cannot
be recycled for making low quality sansa oil, and there is no waste water to
get rid of. I can assure Peter Warnock that is nothing like McDonald, but a
real improvement in quality.
Of course (and with this I do NOT want to criticise anybody) taste is
something very personal. Who is grown up with food with certain defects of
taste (in olive oil as it may happen with wine), may appreciate these
defects because they are 'something special'. Many farmers here are
convinced that their oil is 'the best' although it has sensible defects,
often due to bad storage of the olives. But they have grown up with this,
it's the taste of their life, of their childhood. A perfect oil might not
remind them of the happy days of their childhood ....
By the way I offered an excellent Australian wine (one of the best wines I
ever tasted) to a tuscan friend and he said that local wines are better.
That's what I mean.
Volker Piasta, Volterra - Tuscany (http://toscana-toskana.de )
</pre>
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<pre>Phil,


On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Phil Bramley wrote:

> I read in an Olives Australia newsletter that a large olive waste
> re-processing centre had been built in Oman. Do you know anything about it?

Sorry, most of my information deals with ancient and traditional uses.
I'm a paleoethnobotanist (I work with plant remains from archaeological
sites) so the modern stuff isn't all that useful to me.

Your comment about the pressing wastes being flammable is why it makes
good fuel, the pulp retains a little oil and the stones make a good woody
fuel source.

I have seen references to pressing wastes (liquid and solid) preventing
the growth of grass in orchards. There may be some properties in the
wastes that are a natural herbicide. Something to look into.

Peter Warnock



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</pre>
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