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<pre>Thanks to Adrian for his interesting contribution.
I liked very much Adrians's analysis, when he says "we don't have the choice
of good specialists outlets".

Can somebody give us some information also on other countries prices (for
example Germany, North Europe, USA&Canada, Japan)?

Thanks to Peter also:

\> I agree with Adrian's analysis up to a point. I would not agree that all
UK
> supermarket oil is not up to standard. When it goes in the bottle it is
EV,
> but it deteriorates quite quickly when it gets on the shelves. At the
> beginning of the new season there is a problem with oils which are a mix
of
> last year's harvest and this year's harvest. By April it is probably
> mostly new oil and the standard can be good for own label oils.
>
> Judy
>
>

I'm sorry, but personally I don't agree with Peter, because the most
degradable olive oils are usually the worse ones. The most important olive
oil components for conservation are polyphenols, that are normally low in
low quality oils. I think that the real problem is that the quality of the
olive oil products actually on the market is very low.

In Italy also we have the same problem, because for the consumers it is
difficult to recognize and verify EVOO real quality, and a good label (or a
high price) don't always mean good quality also.

For that reason on the italian market we have hundreds of medium-low prices
oils (from about 2-3 up to about 6 $ per litre) that are made with
medium-low
quality product (usually with one ore more organoletpic olive oil defects);
and a lot of medium-high price oils (including also the new DOP and IGP
products, produced in some typical olive areas like Tuscany, Liguria,
Umbria, Puglia etc.) that are rarely made with high quality olive oil, in
some case they are made with medium oil and frequently (and unfortunately)
they are
made with low quality oil.

Some months ago in one of the most important national supermarkets in North
Italy I tried to buy a couple of bottles of italian olive oil (one of them
was
from Tuscany). They had a medium-high price (about 18000 L./bottle [ =about
9$], in a 0.75 l bottle the first, and a similar price the other) and a very
nice label. It seemed to be a good product. When I tasted them at my home (I
am a professional olive oil taster), I was surpriced to find two mediocre
product with a dull fruttato, and in one of them a clear defect (riscaldo).
I honestly don't believe that in that case the problem could come from an
incorrect storage.

Of course, packaging in clear glass bottles doesn't prevent oil from
deteriorating, while dark bottles helps to protect the oil.



Paolo



--------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo M. Callioni
--------------------------------------------------------------
dottore agronomo

Agricoltura, paesaggio e territorio
http://web.tiscalinet.it/callioni/

Via Porto Botte 102 - 09042 Monserrato (CA)
tel/fax 070-572984 cell. 0347-3408469
p.callioni@tiscalinet.it
--------------------------------------------------------------
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<pre>On Monday 12 February 2001 15:04, Paolo wrote:
>Thanks to Adrian for his interesting contribution.
>I liked very much Adrians's analysis, when he says "we don't have the choice
>of good specialists outlets".

Well I do live in a rather out-of-0the-way location. Many places in South
Wales, and even more in England, will have access to such outlets.

>Thanks to Peter also:

It was Judy!

>\> I agree with Adrian's analysis up to a point. I would not agree that all
>UK
>> supermarket oil is not up to standard. When it goes in the bottle it is
>EV,
>
>> but it deteriorates quite quickly when it gets on the shelves. At the
>> beginning of the new season there is a problem with oils which are a mix
>of
>> last year's harvest and this year's harvest. By April it is probably
>> mostly new oil and the standard can be good for own label oils.
>>
>> Judy
>
>I'm sorry, but personally I don't agree with Peter, because the most
>degradable olive oils are usually the worse ones.

Actually, although Judy was disagreeing with me (where I live, good quality
oil is probably much more difficult to find than where Judy lives), I agree
with her regarding degradation. I read a study somewhere that suggested
extra-virgin oil stored under supermarket lights for 1 month will on average
no longer be extra-virgin, chemically speaking (I guess it will have passed
the 1% FFA threshold). I had cause to complain to a supermarket (Tesco's)
here only last Saturday because they had their top quality oils all stored on
the top shelf, directly under bright lights! The lesser quality ones were on
a lower shelf, where they were darker.

> The most important olive
>oil components for conservation are polyphenols, that are normally low in
>low quality oils. I think that the real problem is that the quality of the
>olive oil products actually on the market is very low.

But if people pay under $6 a litre, they don't expect good quality; they're
probably not going to use it on their best salads or pasta, but they'll fry
with it instead (or some other use where taste is not important). If you pay
$10 or more, you expect the supermarket to have at least tried to keep it in
pristine condition, dark and not too warm. I don't know about polyphenols
slowing the degradation, but I guess they won't stop it altogether.

Regards,

Adrian


--
Adrian D. Shaw
Sefydliad y Gwyddorau Biolegol
Prifysgol Cymru
Aberystwyth, Cymru
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<pre>> >Thanks to Peter also:
>
> It was Judy!
>

I beg your pardon, Judy!


>I read a study somewhere that suggested
>extra-virgin oil stored under supermarket lights for 1 month will on
>average
>no longer be extra-virgin, chemically speaking (I guess it will have passed
>the 1% FFA threshold). I had cause to complain to a supermarket (Tesco's)
>here only last Saturday because they had their top quality oils all stored
on
>the top shelf, directly under bright lights! The lesser quality ones were
on
>a lower shelf, where they were darker.
>
> > The most important olive
> >oil components for conservation are polyphenols, that are normally low in
> >low quality oils. I think that the real problem is that the quality of
> >the
> >olive oil products actually on the market is very low.
>
> But if people pay under $6 a litre, they don't expect good quality;
> they're
> probably not going to use it on their best salads or pasta, but they'll
> fry
> with it instead (or some other use where taste is not important). If you
> pay
> $10 or more, you expect the supermarket to have at least tried to keep it
> in
> pristine condition, dark and not too warm. I don't know about polyphenols
> slowing the degradation, but I guess they won't stop it altogether.
>
> Regards,
>
> Adrian


Adrian:

Polyphenols are antioxidant components and they are aknowledged as
protective substances towards ranking. I really believe that polyphenols
contents in olive oil can indicate its quality and its real value.

Quoting (and translating):

Vitagliano M., Industrie Agrarie, UTET, Torino, 1982, pag. 664:
"In olive oil high polyphenols rate is most important to prevent
ranking. We can say that phenolic substances and not tocopherols
are the right inhibitors in this fat matter, on the contrary than in seed
oils.
In fact, it has been determined that exists a positive correlation between
the polyphenols rate and the oxydation stability of virgin olive oils.
It has also been noticed that a positive correlation exists also between
polyphenols rate (especially phenolic acids) and organoleptic characters of
the oil. "

AA.VV. Extravergine, Manuale per conoscere l'olio di oliva, Slow Food
Editore, Bra, 2000, pag. 94
"The phenolic patrimony is the most precious characteristic of virgin olive
oil,
which is the only vegetal fat in wich polyphenols are aboundant. Such
substances, which contribute to give it its typical "fruttato" aroma, the
"piccante" and bitter taste, have a great antioxydant power.
The extravirgin oil, thanks to these components, is the most preservable
fat and the one with the highest biological value. For these reasons, in
olive oils the polyphenols level determination represents one of the
most significative analyses aiming to the determination of quality
parameters."

In Sardinia, for instance, we grow some high polyphenols producting
cultivars, such as "Bosana", "Tonda di Cagliari" , "Tonda di Villacidro"
etc. that give an oil with high polyphenols rate. Such oils have a long
preservation capacity.

However, olive oil preservation can be surely improved by packaging it
in dark glass bottles. Moreover, olive oil is to be stored away from light
and high temperatures. I agree that it could be very important if the shops
could know how to preserve olive oil at the best.

Anyway, first, we should begin to distinguish the good oils from the
bad ones.


Greetings.


Paolo



--------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo M. Callioni
--------------------------------------------------------------
dottore agronomo

Agricoltura, paesaggio e territorio
http://web.tiscalinet.it/callioni/

Via Porto Botte 102 - 09042 Monserrato (CA)
tel/fax 070-572984 cell. 0347-3408469
p.callioni@tiscalinet.it p.callioni@wind.it
--------------------------------------------------------------
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<pre>on 21/2/01 4:12 PM, Alfred Poulos at apoulos@senet.com.au wrote:

> I hope that I have not confused you.
>
> Alfred Poulos

What? Confuse us? Not a chance.

Just tell me which bit to drink and which to spit out...

--
Gareth Renowden, Limestone Hills, New Zealand
Words, olives and truffles
Office +64 (0)3 355 9552 Home +64 (0)3 314 9921
Mobile 025 790 070
"And when I find my trousers, I'll find my feet" (Viv Stanshall)
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<pre>At 22:40 19/02/01 +0100, you wrote:
>> >Thanks to Peter also:
>>
>> It was Judy!
>>
>
> I beg your pardon, Judy!
>
>
>>I read a study somewhere that suggested
>>extra-virgin oil stored under supermarket lights for 1 month will on
>>average
>>no longer be extra-virgin, chemically speaking (I guess it will have passed
>>the 1% FFA threshold). I had cause to complain to a supermarket (Tesco's)
>>here only last Saturday because they had their top quality oils all stored
>on
>>the top shelf, directly under bright lights! The lesser quality ones were
>on
>>a lower shelf, where they were darker.
>>
>> > The most important olive
>> >oil components for conservation are polyphenols, that are normally low in
>> >low quality oils. I think that the real problem is that the quality of
>> >the
>> >olive oil products actually on the market is very low.
>>
>> But if people pay under $6 a litre, they don't expect good quality;
>> they're
>> probably not going to use it on their best salads or pasta, but they'll
>> fry
>> with it instead (or some other use where taste is not important). If you
>> pay
>> $10 or more, you expect the supermarket to have at least tried to keep it
>> in
>> pristine condition, dark and not too warm. I don't know about polyphenols
>> slowing the degradation, but I guess they won't stop it altogether.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Adrian
>
>
>Adrian:
>
>Polyphenols are antioxidant components and they are aknowledged as
>protective substances towards ranking. I really believe that polyphenols
>contents in olive oil can indicate its quality and its real value.
>
>Quoting (and translating):
>
> Vitagliano M., Industrie Agrarie, UTET, Torino, 1982, pag. 664:
>"In olive oil high polyphenols rate is most important to prevent
> ranking. We can say that phenolic substances and not tocopherols
>are the right inhibitors in this fat matter, on the contrary than in seed
>oils.
>In fact, it has been determined that exists a positive correlation between
>the polyphenols rate and the oxydation stability of virgin olive oils.
>It has also been noticed that a positive correlation exists also between
>polyphenols rate (especially phenolic acids) and organoleptic characters of
>the oil. "
>
> AA.VV. Extravergine, Manuale per conoscere l'olio di oliva, Slow Food
>Editore, Bra, 2000, pag. 94
>"The phenolic patrimony is the most precious characteristic of virgin olive
>oil,
>which is the only vegetal fat in wich polyphenols are aboundant. Such
>substances, which contribute to give it its typical "fruttato" aroma, the
>"piccante" and bitter taste, have a great antioxydant power.
>The extravirgin oil, thanks to these components, is the most preservable
>fat and the one with the highest biological value. For these reasons, in
>olive oils the polyphenols level determination represents one of the
>most significative analyses aiming to the determination of quality
>parameters."
>
>In Sardinia, for instance, we grow some high polyphenols producting
>cultivars, such as "Bosana", "Tonda di Cagliari" , "Tonda di Villacidro"
>etc. that give an oil with high polyphenols rate. Such oils have a long
>preservation capacity.
>
>However, olive oil preservation can be surely improved by packaging it
>in dark glass bottles. Moreover, olive oil is to be stored away from light
>and high temperatures. I agree that it could be very important if the shops
>could know how to preserve olive oil at the best.
>
>Anyway, first, we should begin to distinguish the good oils from the
>bad ones.
>
>
> Greetings.
>
>
> Paolo
>
>Dear Paolo,

I agree totally with your comments regarding the storage of olive oil. It
really is a shame that the really good quality is stored under similar
conditions to the top quality oils in supermarkets.

In relation to the comments about olive oil stability there are some points
I would like to make. Firstly, there are a number of substances in olive
oil which affect its stability. While polyphenols are important we must not
forget that tocopherols also contribute antioxidant activity, while the
phytosterols, particularly avenasterol seem to be involved as well. I am
sure that there are many other substances, (after all olive oil and any
other oil for that matter is a very complex mixture of components), which
play a role as well. Secondly, while the polyphenols have been shown to be
antioxidants, it is important to remember that some polyphenols are better
antioxidants than others, so the antioxidant effects do not simply reflect
the total amount of polyphenols but rather the levels of those with the
more potent antioxidant effects. It is possible that some oils may have
lower amounts of these more potent antioxidants even though the total
polyphenol levels are high. So, the breeding of cultivars with high
polyphenol levels may only have a limited effect on stability if the levels
of the more active polyphenols are not increased. Finally, some
antioxidants can, under certain conditions, act as prooxidants ie they
increase oxidation.

I hope that I have not confused you.

Alfred Poulos


>--------------------------------------------------------------
>Paolo M. Callioni
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>dottore agronomo
>
>Agricoltura, paesaggio e territorio
>http://web.tiscalinet.it/callioni/
>
>Via Porto Botte 102 - 09042 Monserrato (CA)
>tel/fax 070-572984 cell. 0347-3408469
>p.callioni@tiscalinet.it p.callioni@wind.it
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
</pre>
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