<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Hi Brian

I noted with interest your comments on the quality of the Barnea Oil. So
far we have only heard positive comments and therefore am quite interested
in hearing an alternative point of view. Could you please be more specific
regarding why you believe the oil to be inferior. You mention in many of
your postings to the Olive Group about "your book". What is the name of
this book and where can it be purchased?

Thanks!

Lisa Rowntree
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>To all those interested I have secured the permission of Phil Ward, manager
of Cobram Estate, Victoria, to release some detail pertaining to the removal
of some 3000 (maybe 5000) 3 year old Barnea. Phil is happy to speak with
any grower regarding this decision and can be contacted via this list as of
tonight. Alternatively, those interested may contact him directly on 0408
735 325 in Australia.

Basically, Phil (and others) felt that the claimed bearing capacity of the
variety did not meet expectations. This was based not only on their own
experience but also that of our New Zealand cousins who have had the variety
available to them for around 10 years+. The NZ plantations viewed directly
by said people were (after 10 years) not bearing. Of course there may be
idiosyncratic reasons for this and I cannot comment re same.

Cobram Estate planted some 3-5000 Barnea and removed them after 3 years.
Phil may like to comment directly on this point. Cobram Estate has
replanted, as I understand the situation, these trees with members of the
Frantoio family. The whole plantation exceeds 10000 trees in the initial
stage.

Without wishing to be alarmist I have also heard that the variety is
susceptible to fungal root problems although this is not documented in any
literature that I have been able to locate. Given the open nature of this
forum I would stress that this is speculative only and there is no available
direct evidence available to me that would sway me one way or the other.
Nor has Phil, as I understand it, any comment on this aspect. It may all be
an urban myth, or a rural one!

There have been other growers in Victoria (that I have alluded to earlier)
that have either avoided or replanted Barnea. They have not been willing to
identify themselves. Phil however, was the most significant grower
involved.

With respect to the quality of the oil produced from Barnea perhaps Phil can
elaborate. Certainly the comments I have received (and I pass this
information on without further comment) suggest that "the oil is bland",
"without flavour".

In closing I understand that Timbercor, the Australian company about to
float a prospectus concerning a plantation of 250000 Barnea trees, has
already established contracts with Italian firms to take all the oil from
said proposed plantation.

Apart from all of the above I wonder about the direction of the industry
within Australia. What do we want to produce? What quality do we want to
achieve? What market do we seek to capture? What are we growing for?

The last position, viewed dispassionately, is perhaps the most important
one. We are growing to make money for ourselves. The remainder of the
questions fall into the "how do we do it" variety. One may question this
position but it is the one we are stuck with. For my part I already know
that I can produce first quality evoo that rivals the world's "best". My
oil is high quality but my market (within Australia) is limited, therefore I
will have to seek export markets.

I only hope that there has been sufficient attention these matters has been
made, quite apart from the selected variety, that will allow people to make
a quid. The suspicion remains that we are all babes in the wood in the
olive industry and that many players will fall by the wayside. A great pity
in our neck of the woods where most growers have <1500 trees in the ground.

Comment?
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Dear Mr. Caird,

The Facts:

1) The Barnea trees in question were delivered to Cobram Estate in December
1998.
2) A total of 2560 trees were delivered.
3) The first expected harvest of these trees is April 2002.
4) Your comments regarding New Zealand are heresy, I suggest that you
contact Mike Ponder at Ponder Estate, Marlborough, NZ for direct comments
from the producer.

Best Regards, R. Greenfield
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Dear Mr. Caird,

The Facts:

1) The Barnea trees in question were delivered to Cobram Estate in December
1998.
2) A total of 2560 trees were delivered.
3) The first expected harvest of these trees is April 2002.
4) Your comments regarding New Zealand are heresy, I suggest that you
contact Mike Ponder at Ponder Estate, Marlborough, NZ for direct comments
from the producer.

Best Regards, R. Greenfield
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>The Barnea debate is most interesting. Barnea is unique as it is a
commercially promoted variety and for that reason disinterested opinions are
hard to find. There is a "cheer squad" of promoters pushing it.

When we mentioned the "bland flavor" of Barnea in our book last year we
got considerable feed back. Comment such as "bravery" and "courage" were
used as these people had experienced the "cheer squad". We, as avid viewers
of "Yes, Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister" knew that these words were code
for "foolhardy".

In defense of Barnea the bland flavor may be a good thing in Australia
and NZ. While it will not produce a premium oil as defined in the
mediterranean region one has to remember that most of the market in
Australia and New Zealand is for bland oil such as "light" and "pure".
Perhaps Barnea can be used to produce an "extravergine mild" or some such
label for the bulk of the market who currently find the strong flavor of
premium oils difficult to cope with. It certainly commands a premium price
in New Zealand.

Cheers Brian Chatterton.
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>It is sad to hear that any olive variety is in trouble. The Volcani
Institute and Professor Lavee that developed Barnea are internationally
recognised for their work in horticulture and especially the olive.

Trials in Israel indicated the Barnea variety was a an early producer
and having tasted the oil myself I would agree that its taste is not
distinctive. However this is an indication of how varieties perform (or
not perform) in different regions and in the inexperienced hands. Many
growers extol the virtue of their olive trees, particularly the vigour
under intensive irrigation and fertigation. How good the olive trees
perform has to be measured on the quality and quantity of fruit.

If the Barnea variety is not meeting its expectations in Australia then
controlled trials need to be undertaken through the NOVA trials so that
growers do not waste time and money.

In the case of removing 3000 trees after 3 years. I estimate the
establishment, maintainance and removal of those trees at AUS$50/tree
minimum is Aus$150000. Adding 3 years of lost production (ie starting
from scratch)
is 3years x 50kg olives/tree x 3000trees = 450tonnes of olives. This
would yield 90 tonnes of olive oil. This is about 100000 litres which
has a minimum farmgate value ($5/litre) of about AUS$500000.

If my maths are correct then this exercise would cost AUS $650000.

To date it has been interesting to see an olive variety (possibly
Frantoio group) derived from New Norcia in Western Australia has shown
to be a consistent producer and has taken of several national olive oil
prizes.

My advice to growers is that until there is more data which we are
expecting from the NOVA trials, then stick to the well known
international varieties. I am undertaking limited trials in Western
Australia that may yield some useful results to growers. Most of the
worlds olive oil is produced and consumed in the Mediterranean!
Therefore varieties such as picual, nevadillo, arbequena, frantoio,
leccino, pendolino, coratina, conservolea and koroneiki are important
oil varieties. Important table olive varieties are manzanillo,
hojiblanca, sevillano, kalamata. From my experience all good quality
fruit grown for table olives is processed for that purpose. Reject fruit
is then crushed hence the dual purpose olive such as manzanillo and
kalamata.

Stan Kailis
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Stan,

I quite agree with you that the Institute and Ptof Lavee have done
considerable and valuable work.

> It is sad to hear that any olive variety is in trouble. The Volcani
> Institute and Professor Lavee that developed Barnea are internationally
> recognised for their work in horticulture and especially the olive.

Further information from Agrolive states that only 2560 trees were delivered
and not until Dec 1998 with the first expected harvest in 2002.
Nonetheless, with minor adjustments to your financial statement, it seems
that Cobram Estates made a considered business decision of some magnitude.
The question remains why? Regards

> In the case of removing 3000 trees after 3 years. I estimate the
> establishment, maintainance and removal of those trees at AUS$50/tree
> minimum is Aus$150000. Adding 3 years of lost production (ie starting
> from scratch) is 3years x 50kg olives/tree x 3000trees = 450tonnes of
olives. This
> would yield 90 tonnes of olive oil. This is about 100000 litres which
> has a minimum farmgate value ($5/litre) of about AUS$500000.
> If my maths are correct then this exercise would cost AUS $650000.
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>We have had some success in Israel with Barnea. To get a tasty oil, the
fruit must be picked as close to black as possible. I have also found that
an extra 30 minutes of agitation in the almolexor in addition to raising
the temperature of the mixture to 37 or 38 degrees, helps to produce a
rather tasty product. In additon, Barnea is naturally low in acidity here,
and is mixed with other tasty varieties like the native Suri to bring down
the acidity count back to the extra virgin range. We also have one orchard
planted with one tree of Suri for next to ten trees of Barnea, and this
mixture also makes a tasty oil.

Binyomin Adilman
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Tracey,

You have no doubt read the few pages in our book "Discovering oil"
devoted to Barnea. Since then I have tasted more NZ Barnea and have
found that some growers are getting round the "bland Barnea" problem
through extremely early picking. It certainly works. The oil has a bite.
The problem is lack of balance. Some one in this group descibed severe
burns (or at least the sensation) to the back of the throat after
tasting an oil. That is an exaggeration but without fruit to carry it
on the palate bitterness alone is not pleasant.

Why are Australians and New Zealanders so interested in such an obscure
variety?

Quality is important but also perceptions of quality. Take a leaf out
of the wine industry book. There are plenty of excellent wine grapes
that are not the French (mostly) famous dozen but Australia and NZ are
not major players in the world wine scene and are not going to convince
the world of the merits of excellent but obscure varieties.

Would it not be simpler to plant olive oil varieties with a proven track
record of quality rather than obscure varieties from Israel, California
and Ozzie ones that have lost their pedigree?


Cheers Brian Chatterton
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Hello folks,

Just a note. Here in Israel the Barnea seems to do pretty well. This is we
were able to pick the olives black, and let them stay in the mixing trough
for an extra 20 minutes getting the paste up to about 33-34 degrees. The
oil came out light brown almost white and within a week or two gave a
beautiful golden yellow color. The taste and smell are quite good. While I
may agree that it lacks enough balance, when consumed with all types of
food people are very satisfied.

Tracey,

> You have no doubt read the few pages in our book "Discovering oil"
>devoted to Barnea. Since then I have tasted more NZ Barnea and have
>found that some growers are getting round the "bland Barnea" problem
>through extremely early picking. It certainly works. The oil has a bite.
>The problem is lack of balance. Some one in this group descibed severe
>burns (or at least the sensation) to the back of the throat after
>tasting an oil. That is an exaggeration but without fruit to carry it
>on the palate bitterness alone is not pleasant.
>
>Why are Australians and New Zealanders so interested in such an obscure
>variety?
>
>Quality is important but also perceptions of quality. Take a leaf out
>of the wine industry book. There are plenty of excellent wine grapes
>that are not the French (mostly) famous dozen but Australia and NZ are
>not major players in the world wine scene and are not going to convince
>the world of the merits of excellent but obscure varieties.
>
>Would it not be simpler to plant olive oil varieties with a proven track
>record of quality rather than obscure varieties from Israel, California
>and Ozzie ones that have lost their pedigree?
>
>
>Cheers Brian Chatterton
>
>
>******* A MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR ********
>
>2.6. When replying to a post, do not include the entire text of the
>original post. Keep only what is relevant. By selectively deleting
>unnecessary parts of the original text, you will make your reply easier to
>follow. To show where you
>delete text, the <snip> notation may be used.
>
>************************************************* ****
>INDUSTRY BOOKS: http://sadoun.bizland.com/olive.htm
>************************************************* ****
>Addresses:
>Post message: OliveOil@egroups.com
>Subscribe: OliveOil-subscribe@egroups.com
>Unsubscribe: OliveOil-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>List owner: OliveOil-owner@egroups.com
>URL to this page: http://www.egroups.com/group/OliveOil
</pre>
</td></tr></table>