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<pre>Dear Marco:

Adding to the trivia:

In the olive grove of Astrikas Estate in Crete, where George Dimitriadis and
his family produce the Biolea, certified organic, extra-virgin olive oil,
there is also a 2,000 year old olive tree. Their web page is www.biolea.gr

Best regards,
Constantine Alexander
www.papashaven.com



>From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
>Reply-To: OliveOil@onelist.com
>To: OliveOil@onelist.com
>Subject: [OliveOil] Old Olive Trees
>Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:53:02 +0100
>
>From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
>
>Just a trivia...
>On the site of the "Corpo Forestale" (an Italian corp like Rangers) there
>is a note about a wild olive tree (oleastrum) about 2000 years old, with a
>circumference 11.80 metres, but only 15 metres high.
>It's in Sardinia, in San Baltolu di Luras.
>The page is
>http://www.corpoforestale.it/aes/Ric...ri_m/index.htm (Italian only)
>
>Bye!
>
>Marco Bernardini
>
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<pre>Just a trivia...
On the site of the "Corpo Forestale" (an Italian corp like Rangers) there
is a note about a wild olive tree (oleastrum) about 2000 years old, with a
circumference 11.80 metres, but only 15 metres high.
It's in Sardinia, in San Baltolu di Luras.
The page is
http://www.corpoforestale.it/aes/Ric...ri_m/index.htm (Italian only)

Bye!

Marco Bernardini
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<pre>>From: "Constantine Alexander" <papashaven@hotmail.com>
>Adding to the trivia:
>In the olive grove of Astrikas Estate in Crete, where George Dimitriadis and
>his family produce the Biolea, certified organic, extra-virgin olive oil,
>there is also a 2,000 year old olive tree. Their web page is www.biolea.gr

I see also a lot of old nice trees in Djerba, Tunisia.
The story tells they were planted by Romans.
What about Jordan, Sadoun?

Bye!

Marco Bernardini
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<pre>Yes in Tunisia there are many groves planted by the Romans, still doing
well!!!
M.Harrabi
----- Original Message -----
From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
To: <OliveOil@onelist.com>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Old Olive Trees


> From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
>
> >From: "Constantine Alexander" <papashaven@hotmail.com>
> >Adding to the trivia:
> >In the olive grove of Astrikas Estate in Crete, where George Dimitriadis
and
> >his family produce the Biolea, certified organic, extra-virgin olive oil,
> >there is also a 2,000 year old olive tree. Their web page is
www.biolea.gr
>
> I see also a lot of old nice trees in Djerba, Tunisia.
> The story tells they were planted by Romans.
> What about Jordan, Sadoun?
>
> Bye!
>
> Marco Bernardini
>
>
>
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<pre>Marco

As you know, the Romans occupied most of the Mediterranean countries for over a
thousand years (from about 400BC to 600AD, I think). They have certainly
contributed a lot in spreading the planting of olives from the Middle East to
Europe and Spain in particular. I have read that the first olive trees were
found around the northern part of the Jordan river more than 10,000 years ago.
Archeologist have found olive seeds that go back around 10k years found in jars
discovered in the old city of Jericho in the West Bank. Maybe Mr Peter Warnok
or others on this list can shed some light on this topic.

From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
>I see also a lot of old nice trees in Djerba, Tunisia.
>The story tells they were planted by Romans.
>What about Jordan, Sadoun?

regards, Jamal Sadoun



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<pre>Concerning the origin and spread of the olive, most evidence (botanical
and archaeological) points to a center of origin in the Levant (northern
Jordan & Israel, southern Lebanon & Syria). One reference, if anyone is
interested, is "Introduction, development and environmental implications
of olive culture: The evidence from Jordan" by Reinder Neef, in "Man's
Role in the Shaping of the Eastern Mediterranean Landscape", Bottema,
Entjes-Nieborg & Van Zeist (eds), A.A.Balkema (pubs), pp. 295-306, 1990.
The spread of olives and the knowledge of olive cultivation &
processing was likely due in great part to the Phoenicians. First to
places like Greece (which was a secondary center of olive origins), and
then further west to other Phoenician urban centers (such as Carthage in
North Africa and other sites in Spain). From these Phoenician centers it
likely spread to the rest of the Mediterranean world.
Some of the earliest olive processing evidence has been found off
the Carmel coast (near Haifa) in Israel/Palestine. Pits with crushed
olive remains and the baskets containing them have been found underwater
(at about a meter's depth and several meters from the shoreline). The
pits date to late Neolithic/early Chalcolithic periods (as early as 6500
years ago). "Evidence for Earliest Olive-Oil Production in Submerged
Settelments off the Carmel Coast, Israel," by Galili, Stanley, Sharvit and
Weinstein-Evron," Journal of Archaeological Science 24:1141-1150, 1997.
In my research in Jordan, many of the old groves or trees are
called "Romani" by the local people, with the explanation that the Romans
planted them. While it is more likely that the trees are from the Ottoman
periods, olive trees are next to impossible to date (using tree-ring
dating technology, though C-14 might be a possibility), so there may be
some that actually are from later Roman/Byzantine periods.
Of interest to me is the question of which came first, the use of
the olive as a food, or for the oil. Unprocessed olives are extremely
bitter. While ancient peoples may have had different taste preferences
than ours, I find it difficult to believe that people started eating the
olives off the tree. I do have evidence that people do eat unprocessed
olives off the tree and freshly dropped olives, but only those that have
slightly fermented and lost some of their bitterness. If people used the
olive for its oil first, how did they discover this aspect of the fruit
and first start processing it?



Peter Warnock
Dept. of Anthropology
Swallow Hall
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO 65211
(573) 443-4203
(573) 884-5450 (fax)
c581927@showme.missouri.edu


On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Sadoun wrote:

> From: "Sadoun" <ASadoun@att.net>
>
> Marco
>
> As you know, the Romans occupied most of the Mediterranean countries for over
a thousand years (from about 400BC to 600AD, I think). They have certainly
contributed a lot in spreading the planting of olives from the Middle East to
Europe and Spain in particular. I have read that the first olive trees were
found around the northern part of the Jordan river more than 10,000 years ago.
Archeologist have found olive seeds that go back around 10k years found in jars
discovered in the old city of Jericho in the West Bank. Maybe Mr Peter Warnok
or others on this list can shed some light on this topic.
>
> From: Marco Bernardini <webmaster@taggiasca.com>
> >I see also a lot of old nice trees in Djerba, Tunisia.
> >The story tells they were planted by Romans.
> >What about Jordan, Sadoun?
>
> regards, Jamal Sadoun
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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<pre>I can't give you an answer but just a few days ago I have read an old article
of an Italian trade attache, Mr P. Mamoli, dated between 1880/1896.
Well, Mr Mamoli wrote ...." you can see many olive orchards near Derna
(Cyrenaica-Libya) , more than 117.000 trees. At the Roman age, about 60/80 ships
sailed from Marsa Susa harbour with a cargo of oil for approximately 1.600 tons
a year.
I suggest to buy these woods ...."
Also this reportage is useful to attest that olive oil was known and used in
times long past.
It is useful to know too that unprocessed, just dried olives loose completely
their bitterness.
It's a very simple recipe I have tested too. I used my stove to dry olives: they
became sweet
and ready to be eaten in a few days.
So it's fairly probable that in the past people started eating the olives dried
by the sun.
Regards
Antonio
--------------------

On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:41:29 -0600 (CST), Peter Warnock wrote:

From: Peter Warnock <c581927@showme.missouri.edu>

...... Of interest to me is the question of which came first, the use of
the olive as a food, or for the oil. Unprocessed olives are extremely
bitter. While ancient peoples may have had different taste preferences
than ours, I find it difficult to believe that people started eating the
olives off the tree. I do have evidence that people do eat unprocessed
olives off the tree and freshly dropped olives, but only those that have
slightly fermented and lost some of their bitterness. If people used the
olive for its oil first, how did they discover this aspect of the fruit
and first start processing it?

Peter Warnock
Dept. of Anthropology
Swallow Hall
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO 65211
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<pre>With our first batch of Kalamata olives last year we tried a number of ways
to preserve, pickle or treat them. From the variety of new books about
olives, springing up in Australian bookstores, we were able to try a wide
range of recipes.

One recipe we particularly liked, mostly for its simplicity, was putting
Kalamata olives in a stainless steel colander and applying a quantity of
rock salt on top and allowing to drain. After a few weeks the salt had
leached the bitterness from the olives and the result was a table olive
looking a bit like a prune but with an intense taste.

Regards,

Phil
</pre>
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