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<pre>Realising that this group is international I preface my remarks by the
observation that this is about Western Australia, and it seems to be hard
to reach local Western Australians either by telephone or email.

I went today to the Gingin ( town 1 hour north of Perth) with the
expectation of gaining some simple info on a question I have had for quite
some while. I want to know how much land to buy to start a small olive
grove with the intention in some 7 - 10 years time to supply fruit to the
local industry. How much land? Obviously a primary financial question, but
getting any answers proved harder than I thought, no matter how I put it.

I spoke to several people at the event and the answers ranged from some
strongly negative ( visit a bank and put the cash in an investment account)
to mildly positive and more or less informative.

The focus of the event seemed to be on tasting. Clearly important, but
first things are first.

If an olive industry is going to grow in Western Australia, then it would be
paramount in my opinion to get back to basics. The industry isn't
obviously interested in assisting - emails to the association (s) produce
nothing. So where does this fundamental info come from?

Compare to investing in the stock market. The place is crawling with
advice. The olive industry? Maybe it hasn't realised that there are people
out there with cash and a willingness to get dirt under the finger nails,
and I suspect we can do (collectively) something that hasn't happened
before. I agree with Michael Burr.

Any advice will be welcome.

Bill
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<pre>> I went today to the Gingin ( town 1 hour north of Perth) with the
> expectation of gaining some simple info on a question I have had for quite
> some while. I want to know how much land to buy to start a small olive
> grove with the intention in some 7 - 10 years time to supply fruit to the
> local industry. How much land? Obviously a primary financial question,
but
> getting any answers proved harder than I thought, no matter how I put it.


Bill,

Interesting question, and to be honest, not the easiest one to answer
definitively, but I'll have a go for you.

Work on the assumption that an olive tree will yield around 40kg of fruit
once mature (at 8/10 years) and will yield more than that under good
conditions, but being sufficiently pessimistic to only budget for a low
crop.
40kg of olives per tree ... but what will you do with the fruit? There is
currently a high demand for oil making olives, and expect to receive about
$1 per kilo for your fruit. The demand for pickling olives is lower, but
they do sell (if in perfect condition) for around $3 per kilo.
It is probably wise to avoid being tempted by the "multi-purpose" olives
(here in the Hunter Valley of NSW we have had some serious problems making
oil out of Manzanillo) and settle for the best possible species for your
project.

If you do decide to go for oil, and decide to plant (for example) Frantoio
you may need to plant another species as a pollinator. Plenty of people on
this group can advise you about this aspect.

How many trees? Okay, at 40kg per tree and 250 trees to the hectare (spacing
of 8m x 5m or thereabouts) should give you 10 tonnes per year, or $10,000
income per hectare. How much income do you want to generate, and how much
work are you going to do yourself, or pay somebody do for you.

10 hectares planted ... $100,000 a year income ... yourself and one other
full time employee, repay bank loan, picking costs, council rates, power,
diesel, equipment costs, irrigation costs....

Or do you intend you buy your own press, make your own oil and market it
yourself?

Sorry, but there is no easy answer, but I hope these figures give you a bit
of an idea of the variables. If you would like me to do a more detailed
study for you, please get in touch off the list at
mike.wilson@hunterlink.net.au and I'll go into more detail.

Regards,

Mike Wilson.
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<pre>Some of the problem might be that the people Bill was asking were at a
conference aimed at harvesting and processing. Whilst that might seem
the wrong way around, to be fair to the people there, they have/should
have done all that before and wanted answers to more (dare I say it?)
pressing problems!
That being said, It sould be apparent to these self same people, that to
encourage new members into the industry, they have to seriously listen
to anyone with questions and then point them in the direction of the
"right" (or at least a fair approximation to the right) answer. If
someone suggested this forum as a place to get answers, they did Bill no
end of favours, as he will get answers aplenty! I am disappointed that
noone at the venue was prepared to have a shot at an answer.

Whilst I concurr with the sentiments axpressed by Mike, below, the
actual "answer" depends more on the result required. If Bill wants to
become self supporting on the olives, there is a greater need for more
trees (and possibly more cultivars - a belt and braces man, me!) than if
he is satisfied with a hobby farm and sufficient income to play around
with in retirement. If he hasn't already done so, I'd suggets to Bill
that he contact Julian Archer (who I know lurks around these corridors
of chat) and put the questions directly. I'd also suggest that Bill put
the questions he wants answered, as clearly as he can, on this group for
discussion.

My grove is 300+ trees, on a staggered 5m then 8m row spacing and 5m
inter tree. Reasoning? the harvesters were specified as requireing 8m
between rows, the alternate 8m rows will allow acces to one side of each
tree in each row. The harvesters were stated to need 5m between trees to
spread their batwings. Thus the intertree and even row spacing was 5m.
We needed a slightly higher density than the conventional 8 * 5 metres
to get a reasonable number of trees into our (strictly limited) space.
The land was bought before there was any suggestion of olives being
viable here, and we cannot expand (physically nor economically).

You cuts the suit to match the cloth!

John Attwood
Tamworth NSW Au

Mike Wilson wrote:

>> I went today to the Gingin ( town 1 hour north of Perth) with the
>> expectation of gaining some simple info on a question I have had for quite
>> some while. I want to know how much land to buy to start a small olive
>> grove with the intention in some 7 - 10 years time to supply fruit to the
>> local industry. How much land? Obviously a primary financial question,
>
> but
>
>> getting any answers proved harder than I thought, no matter how I put it.
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Interesting question, and to be honest, not the easiest one to answer
> definitively, but I'll have a go for you.
>
> Work on the assumption that an olive tree will yield around 40kg of fruit
> once mature (at 8/10 years) and will yield more than that under good
> conditions, but being sufficiently pessimistic to only budget for a low
> crop.
> 40kg of olives per tree ... but what will you do with the fruit? There is
> currently a high demand for oil making olives, and expect to receive about
> $1 per kilo for your fruit. The demand for pickling olives is lower, but
> they do sell (if in perfect condition) for around $3 per kilo.
> It is probably wise to avoid being tempted by the "multi-purpose" olives
> (here in the Hunter Valley of NSW we have had some serious problems making
> oil out of Manzanillo) and settle for the best possible species for your
> project.
>
> If you do decide to go for oil, and decide to plant (for example) Frantoio
> you may need to plant another species as a pollinator. Plenty of people on
> this group can advise you about this aspect.
>
> How many trees? Okay, at 40kg per tree and 250 trees to the hectare (spacing
> of 8m x 5m or thereabouts) should give you 10 tonnes per year, or $10,000
> income per hectare. How much income do you want to generate, and how much
> work are you going to do yourself, or pay somebody do for you.
>
> 10 hectares planted ... $100,000 a year income ... yourself and one other
> full time employee, repay bank loan, picking costs, council rates, power,
> diesel, equipment costs, irrigation costs....
>
> Or do you intend you buy your own press, make your own oil and market it
> yourself?
>
> Sorry, but there is no easy answer, but I hope these figures give you a bit
> of an idea of the variables. If you would like me to do a more detailed
> study for you, please get in touch off the list at
> mike.wilson@hunterlink.net.au and I'll go into more detail.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Wilson.
>
>
>
> ************************************************** ***
> Olive Oil Books and Statistics:
> http://sadoun.com/olive.htm
> ************************************************** ***
> Addresses:
> Post message: OliveOil@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: OliveOil-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: OliveOil-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
</pre>
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<pre>Love to actually see one of these batwing harvesters that dictate tree
spacing - where do they come from? can they fly? I have not heard of
anyone successfully using these monsters & believe that for the
foreseeable future it will be hand or hand held mechanical harvesting,
for a variety of reasons.

Roger Farquhar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>> Bill,
>
> Interesting question, and to be honest, not the easiest one to answer
> definitively, but I'll have a go for you.
>
> Work on the assumption that an olive tree will yield around 40kg of fruit
> once mature (at 8/10 years) and will yield more than that under good
> conditions, but being sufficiently pessimistic to only budget for a low
> crop.
> 40kg of olives per tree ... but what will you do with the fruit? There is
> currently a high demand for oil making olives, and expect to receive about
> $1 per kilo for your fruit. The demand for pickling olives is lower, but
> they do sell (if in perfect condition) for around $3 per kilo.
> It is probably wise to avoid being tempted by the "multi-purpose" olives
> (here in the Hunter Valley of NSW we have had some serious problems making
> oil out of Manzanillo) and settle for the best possible species for your
> project.
>
> If you do decide to go for oil, and decide to plant (for example) Frantoio
> you may need to plant another species as a pollinator. Plenty of people on
> this group can advise you about this aspect.
>
> How many trees? Okay, at 40kg per tree and 250 trees to the hectare (spacing
> of 8m x 5m or thereabouts) should give you 10 tonnes per year, or $10,000
> income per hectare. How much income do you want to generate, and how much
> work are you going to do yourself, or pay somebody do for you.
>
> 10 hectares planted ... $100,000 a year income ... yourself and one other
> full time employee, repay bank loan, picking costs, council rates, power,
> diesel, equipment costs, irrigation costs....
>
> Or do you intend you buy your own press, make your own oil and market it
> yourself?
>
> Sorry, but there is no easy answer, but I hope these figures give you a bit
> of an idea of the variables. If you would like me to do a more detailed
> study for you, please get in touch off the list at
> mike.wilson@hunterlink.net.au and I'll go into more detail.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Wilson.
>
>
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:46:15 +1100
> From: John Attwood <johnat@oxleyolives.au2.com>
> Subject: Re: Gingin
>
> Some of the problem might be that the people Bill was asking were at a
> conference aimed at harvesting and processing. Whilst that might seem
> the wrong way around, to be fair to the people there, they have/should
> have done all that before and wanted answers to more (dare I say it?)
> pressing problems!
> That being said, It sould be apparent to these self same people, that to
> encourage new members into the industry, they have to seriously listen
> to anyone with questions and then point them in the direction of the
> "right" (or at least a fair approximation to the right) answer. If
> someone suggested this forum as a place to get answers, they did Bill no
> end of favours, as he will get answers aplenty! I am disappointed that
> noone at the venue was prepared to have a shot at an answer.
>
> Whilst I concurr with the sentiments axpressed by Mike, below, the
> actual "answer" depends more on the result required. If Bill wants to
> become self supporting on the olives, there is a greater need for more
> trees (and possibly more cultivars - a belt and braces man, me!) than if
> he is satisfied with a hobby farm and sufficient income to play around
> with in retirement. If he hasn't already done so, I'd suggets to Bill
> that he contact Julian Archer (who I know lurks around these corridors
> of chat) and put the questions directly. I'd also suggest that Bill put
> the questions he wants answered, as clearly as he can, on this group for
> discussion.
>
> My grove is 300+ trees, on a staggered 5m then 8m row spacing and 5m
> inter tree. Reasoning? the harvesters were specified as requireing 8m
> between rows, the alternate 8m rows will allow acces to one side of each
> tree in each row. The harvesters were stated to need 5m between trees to
> spread their batwings. Thus the intertree and even row spacing was 5m.
> We needed a slightly higher density than the conventional 8 * 5 metres
> to get a reasonable number of trees into our (strictly limited) space.
> The land was bought before there was any suggestion of olives being
> viable here, and we cannot expand (physically nor economically).
>
> You cuts the suit to match the cloth!
>
> John Attwood
> Tamworth NSW Au

Thankyou both for your comments. It is actually a shame that we need to
do this electronically, I am a bloke who likes to get dirt under the
fingernails as often as possible, and sitting a keyboard isn't going to do
that. However, thankyou t0 both of you and to those "off air" who answered
my apparently simple question. It would seem that we have quite a community
here in Australia. Long may it live. I will be planting some trees before
long, and I have some scientific ideas about how "ripeness" can be
measured. I am a biochemist/microbiologist from way back.

Bill

Bill
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<pre>Bill,

before you go & get your fingers dirty can you tell us an easy way to
measure salinity to the .5% min of water? the soaking olives can
apparently absorb some of the salt & reduce salinity of the water. Also
I have heard that the caustic soda method can leach some or all of the
beneficial health properties from the fruit whereas brine preserves the same.

Roger Farquhar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
</pre>
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<pre>Roger,
Took me a while to digest the content of your message. I know, S L O O O
W, Huh?


Roger Farquhar wrote:

> Love to actually see one of these batwing harvesters that dictate tree
> spacing - where do they come from? can they fly?


The harvesters mentioned are the ones from OMC (in the US) . They appear
to be OK for FLAT land with no great undulations. They do not fly, crawl
would seem to be a better description of the speed of movement.

> I have not heard of
> anyone successfully using these monsters & believe that for the
> foreseeable future it will be hand or hand held mechanical harvesting,
> for a variety of reasons.

Depends muchly on your definition of "forseeable". For the years until
the trees are about 8 - 10 years old, I agree. However, there will, in
the fulness of time, be a need to address the mechanical harvesting of
fruit for pressing. This will, of necessity, include such machinery as
the OMC and others. I'd refer you to the AOA magazine and Olives
Australia magazine for details. (Back issues, most probably)

Cheers
John Attwood
Tamworth NSW Australia
</pre>
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<pre>Bill et al,

The olive industry in Australia (ie the 'new wave' of professional semi
retirees) is characterised by two elements, mechanical harvesting &
irrigation. These influence grove layout & cv choice & are over & above
any other factors. Considerations of winter chill units, oil quality &
stability, tolerance to disease & humidity are secondary. I believe that
without the promise of mechanical harvesting many even most people would
not have invested in this industry. To date the only manifestation of
these devices has been in magazine articles. The adaptation of the tree
by pruning to give a clear trunk for harvesting has had serious
consequences on tree vigour for many reasons & the everpresent need to
be suitable for a tree shaker has overruled all others.

Irrigation has also had a negative impact in that proper drainage has
been overlooked, irrational watering cycles employed, root growth
ignored & the more serious factor of an inability to modify or adapt
existing grove layouts to local conditions due to the existence of main
& lateral pipeworks. Irrigation has been employed almost universally in
new groves under the belief that (projected) yields & therefore profits
will increase dramatically.

These two factors have caused a gridlock in thinking & are stopping the
proper understanding of the tree physiology.

New growers should canvas views from a wide area. Publications can be
very useful but be mindful of any editorial bias. At present 'new wave'
growers are unable to tolerate any comments or views that do not comply
with their own beliefs. Speak to as many people as possible including (&
especially) Greek or Italian growers for a more balanced view. Don't pay
too much attention to suppliers, advisers etc unless you have absolute
confidence in their objectivity. Too much information is left out &
until you know enough to ask the right questions dont make any decisions.

Roger Farquhar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<pre>Roger,
Your, slightly unfair and somewhat innacurate, comments ...

Roger Farquhar wrote:

> Bill et al,
>
> The olive industry in Australia (ie the 'new wave' of professional semi
> retirees) is characterised by two elements, mechanical harvesting &
> irrigation. These influence grove layout & cv choice & are over & above
> any other factors. Considerations of winter chill units, oil quality &
> stability, tolerance to disease & humidity are secondary. I believe that
> without the promise of mechanical harvesting many even most people would
> not have invested in this industry. To date the only manifestation of
> these devices has been in magazine articles. The adaptation of the tree
> by pruning to give a clear trunk for harvesting has had serious
> consequences on tree vigour for many reasons & the everpresent need to
> be suitable for a tree shaker has overruled all others.

In some cases, I believe you are right, but ... in most cases, a
thorough research of the available (and that is available at the time)
literature/experts was undertaken. There are such devices in existence
around the traps at the moment. We (the Tamworth & District Olive
Growers Association) are holding a harvesting field day at which we
should have a fair selection of harvesting devices available for viewing
(and viewing the results).

In any venture, one takes whatever advice can be had, make a choice
based on the evidence available and then live with that choice. When I
was planning my grove, I was told, from several sources of good repute
that there would be a need for 8 * 5 metre spacing. The reasons included
sunlight penetration and harvesting requirements.

Unless you were already an expert when you started, I bet you took
advice and structured your planting plans accordingly.

> Irrigation has also had a negative impact in that proper drainage has
> been overlooked, irrational watering cycles employed, root growth
> ignored & the more serious factor of an inability to modify or adapt
> existing grove layouts to local conditions due to the existence of main
> & lateral pipeworks. Irrigation has been employed almost universally in
> new groves under the belief that (projected) yields & therefore profits
> will increase dramatically.

Is there any evidence for this really wide, sweeping statement?
Irrigation is employed as a means of supplementing the (very fickle)
natural irrigation method. Without it, I suggest that many of the groves
planted would be very dead!

> These two factors have caused a gridlock in thinking & are stopping the
> proper understanding of the tree physiology.

Another sweeping ststement with little supporting argument. Again, we
are all learning (yes, I suspect, even you) about the needs of the tree
under our particular conditions. In a place as large as Australia, there
are significant differences between groves, even those fairly close to
each other, because of soil, previous use of the area, aspect and
rainfall patterns.

> New growers should canvas views from a wide area. Publications can be
> very useful but be mindful of any editorial bias. At present 'new wave'
> growers are unable to tolerate any comments or views that do not comply
> with their own beliefs. Speak to as many people as possible including (&
> especially) Greek or Italian growers for a more balanced view.

Yes, but they do not have the climatic variations, etc that we have
here. There are still differences between these so-called experts from
the "traditional" growing areas, often based on preference for a
particular style of olive or oil. There is no reason to follow the
traditions of these areas when we have the opportunity to create our own
tradition.

BTW Roger, are you an 'old wave' grower? How do you define the term
'new wave'?

> Don't pay
> too much attention to suppliers, advisers etc unless you have absolute
> confidence in their objectivity. Too much information is left out &
> until you know enough to ask the right questions dont make any decisions.

And you never get to know enough unless you have tried some of the
things suggested and find out they don't work! OR unless you talk to
someone who has tried and failed. Listen to them, as they will have
learned valuable lessons, often at great expense, and will be most happy
to share their experiences with you.

Also, don't take too much notice of self-styled experts. They will give
their own bias to the information they provide. I'd suggets that there
is no such thing as an expert in Australia or NZ. We are, as I already
mentioned, still learning.

>
>
> Roger Farquhar
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ************************************************** ***
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</pre>
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<pre><big snip of differing opinions>


>
> > Don't pay
> > too much attention to suppliers, advisers etc unless you have absolute
> > confidence in their objectivity. Too much information is left out &
> > until you know enough to ask the right questions dont make any
decisions.
>
> And you never get to know enough unless you have tried some of the
> things suggested and find out they don't work! OR unless you talk to
> someone who has tried and failed. Listen to them, as they will have
> learned valuable lessons, often at great expense, and will be most happy
> to share their experiences with you.
>
> Also, don't take too much notice of self-styled experts. They will give
> their own bias to the information they provide. I'd suggets that there
> is no such thing as an expert in Australia or NZ. We are, as I already
> mentioned, still learning.
>

This is what the list is all about!

As a new-ish grower in an area where olives have not traditionally been
planted I had very few sources of information .... the nursery and
Californian literature being the two main sources available to me in the
early days. My decisions were always "best guess" and tempered by the
knowledge that growing conditions here were going to be different.

For the most part the advise I received was qualified by the "but we don't
really know" statement, and treated as such. For the most part, it was
reasonable advise.

Now seven years on the advise I took and acted on seems to have held me in
good stead, but the experience gained was invaluable. I now understand the
importance of good drainage, and how to achieve the same. I realise why 8 x
5 is a good spacing. I understand what nutrition a tree needs at what time
of the year, and why. I can recognise a wide range of olive pests, diseases
and problem, because I've had them all!

People come to see my grove, exclaim how well my trees are, ask what I did
and why I did it, then go away and do the opposite!

There is qualified experience out there, its just a matter of understanding
that anybody who says he knows all about olives in Australia is an idiot.
The best you can hope for is reasonable local knowledge and advise based on
practical experience. There are people out there with this knowledge and
they are probably prepared to share it. But it will be a long time before we
know all the answers.

Regards,

Mike Wilson.
Hunter Valley.
</pre>
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