<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>From: Mohamed El-Kholy

Dear Allan & Judith

No your trees are definitely not dying. Further and based on the
symptoms you have described (among which: leaves are turning black
and falling off and stakes exhibit same oiliness appearance), I do
not believe that you have a scale problem on those very specific
trees. In fact they shall not be infected with scale for quite some
time until they recover as they are currently drying out of their
natural sap, which attracts such pests.

You have been totally right. Increased oil concentration at the end
of each 20 liters tank application has caused this and therefore if
you look at your grove with a hawk eye, you will find the unhappy
trees in distinctive spots. If your trees are similar in size meaning
that they consume similar amounts of the spraying solution, you will
even find that these spots have a symmetrical repeatable pattern
(i.e. every certain number of trees). If you can memorize your
spraying operation, you will ascertain that these trees were the last
sprayed ones from each tank. For many different reasons and whatever
growers are spraying, I always recommend that they should mark the
last sprayed tree of each round with a ribbon for future assessment
and data base establishment.

Carry on some more investigations and you will notice the following:
Ø Marking these trees on your grove drawing which should
indicate the location of all trees, you will identify the "hawk
eye"
pattern.
Ø Corregiola have larger, wider and flattened leaves than the
Nevadillo, thus they do not allow the spraying solution to drain
readily.
Ø Cut few inches below the growing tip of some of the twinges
and branches showing symptoms of defoliation or burning (turning
black) leaves and you will clearly identify pale greenish sections
with brownish core of non-dead wood with reduced sap content. On
advanced stages of drying out, you might find that the whole section
is completely brown, nevertheless is distinguished from dead wood by
containing sap traces.
Ø The leaves and wood look very dusty as the oil catch dust or
smoke from the air especially if the trees are close to unpaved roads
or the exhaust of combustion engines.
Ø Rub the wood and the leaves with a small piece of white
cloth, and you will clearly identify the surplus dirty oil and the
minute you do it, you will recognize your trees suffering and most
probably will feel sorry for them.
Ø New shoots are bursting from unexpected advantageous buds
directly from the wood, especially at lower sections of the trunk or
the root system. Their bursting is time dependant among other
factors, so if you do not see them now, be sure they will come out at
a later date.

The cause of damage is that the thin oily film left on the leaves has
caused their burning specially when associated with relatively high
climatic temperatures or direct sunrays and further prohibited the
leaves efficient transpiration and photosynthesis resulting in
dryness and less sap movement. Oil burning symptoms are very specific
and could never be misidentified with others.

Oil affected trees do not easily surrender and die, unless they were
originally unhealthy, and therefore they have sap traces in their
drying out organs. To recover quickly they need your help. Prune them
as per my last article of AOG issue 17 as I have already addressed
this case. The degree of pruning will be proportional to the degree
of oil and defoliation damage. The worst case might demand drastic
pruning. After pruning and on the hope of removing some of the oil,
which is choking them, wash them with a mild water jet, which should
not cause more defoliation.

Your more thinking and second diagnoses was right and this is a true
example of new growers who have to be more self-confident and must
trust their instincts.

Prof. Stan Kailis of UWA has identified some of the causes for olive
leaf loss and I would like to add two more to his list:
Ø Ageing, which should be clearly identified by growers so that
they do not get panic and ask for a remote advice over a distance,
which might cause unnecessary harm. Here I am also giving an advice
over a distance like many others, so please be cautious.
Ø Draught.

I might also add to Prof Kailis comments that nematodes cause leaf
loss but do not cause defoliation. In this case the leaves will
completely dry but will remain strongly attached to their branches.

Hoping my diagnosis vis-à-vis yours are correct and will help in
saving your non-dying trees (let us call them "temporarily
retarded
trees".

Happy olive growing to you both and to all of the good company on
this forum.

Mohamed El-Kholy

PS. In fact there are lot of subjects that I would really like to
contribute with my comments, but my problem is time. I wish I could
be as active as Peter Carid and Phil Bramley, whom I owe an apology
for a very delayed answer. Please forgive me and do not lose hope.
Olive growers must be patient as much as their trees.

TO UNSATISFIED OZ MANZANILLOS GROWERS: Again be patient and give your
trees another chance for a season or two as I said before. I have
been looking at oil yield figures of other cultivars from the same
regions having problems with the Ms. Surprisingly none of them
although purely oil varieties are yielding their promissed figures.
In fact they are far behind! I am just wondering: are these varieties
going to face same destiny? You need more time for appraisal
researching!
One thing I am sure of and that is (without hard feelings): Many
growers who claim to have fully irrigated groves need to develop
their practices of grove management as well as their targets.
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>> From: Mohamed El-Kholy
>
> Dear Allan & Judith
>
> No your trees are definitely not dying. Further and based on the
> symptoms you have described (among which: leaves are turning black
> and falling off and stakes exhibit same oiliness appearance), I do
> not believe that you have a scale problem on those very specific
> trees. In fact they shall not be infected with scale for quite some
> time until they recover as they are currently drying out of their
> natural sap, which attracts such pests.
>
> You have been totally right. Increased oil concentration at the end
> of each 20 liters tank application has caused this and therefore if
> you look at your grove with a hawk eye, you will find the unhappy
> trees in distinctive spots. If your trees are similar in size meaning
> that they consume similar amounts of the spraying solution, you will
> even find that these spots have a symmetrical repeatable pattern
> (i.e. every certain number of trees). If you can memorize your
> spraying operation, you will ascertain that these trees were the last
> sprayed ones from each tank. For many different reasons and whatever
> growers are spraying, I always recommend that they should mark the
> last sprayed tree of each round with a ribbon for future assessment
> and data base establishment.
>

Mohamed,

I paid a visit to Judith's gove on the weekend, and your diagnosis is spot
on!

It seems that the oil and water separated towards the end of each pass of
spraying, so the least few trees took quite a heavy dose of oil. This is
causing the stickiness and dust is starting to stick to the oil. There is no
real damage to the trees, and the spraying was done late in the season after
the hot weather so there is no burning or "frying" of the leaves in the oil.

There does seem to be another, probably unrelated problem with a couple of
the trees, I suspect it is just a coincidence that thet were also oil
affected. My opinion is that there is some form of root disturbance causing
the trees to drop leaves. They are very young trees, to about 1.2m - 1.5m
and have kept the end of the branch leaves, but lost the leaves lower down
the branches. This is the same symptom I had with my Kalamata which turned
out to be a root fungus problem, so Judith will be spraying the trees with a
systemic fungicide (Alliette) next week to see if that clears it up.
It worked well on my trees about 18 months ago and they have recovered
fully.

>
> Oil affected trees do not easily surrender and die, unless they were
> originally unhealthy, and therefore they have sap traces in their
> drying out organs. To recover quickly they need your help. Prune them
> as per my last article of AOG issue 17 as I have already addressed
> this case. The degree of pruning will be proportional to the degree
> of oil and defoliation damage. The worst case might demand drastic
> pruning. After pruning and on the hope of removing some of the oil,
> which is choking them, wash them with a mild water jet, which should
> not cause more defoliation.

Much of the oil has now washed off, the only evidence is a darker, oily mark
on the trunk and on the stakes (plastic). We haven't had much rain recently,
so a wash would probably be a good idea.

My suspicion is that the oil they used wasn't misible. I have had no
problems using petroleum based white oil not "organic" vegetable oil. Alan &
Judith were advised by a local citrus grower not to bother with "expensive"
white oil and just use "organic" vegetable oil as it did the same job. I beg
to differ.

>
> Your more thinking and second diagnoses was right and this is a true
> example of new growers who have to be more self-confident and must
> trust their instincts.
>
> Prof. Stan Kailis of UWA has identified some of the causes for olive
> leaf loss and I would like to add two more to his list:
> Ø Ageing, which should be clearly identified by growers so that
> they do not get panic and ask for a remote advice over a distance,
> which might cause unnecessary harm. Here I am also giving an advice
> over a distance like many others, so please be cautious.
> Ø Draught.
>

Not aging ... trees are still very young and most of the grove is vigorous.
Probably not drought as the block is irrigated, however water stress might
be a factor.


> I might also add to Prof Kailis comments that nematodes cause leaf
> loss but do not cause defoliation. In this case the leaves will
> completely dry but will remain strongly attached to their branches.
>

Nematodes are unlikely as the ground is virgin territory and unlikely to
have built up any significant nematode population.



>
> TO UNSATISFIED OZ MANZANILLOS GROWERS: Again be patient and give your
> trees another chance for a season or two as I said before. I have
> been looking at oil yield figures of other cultivars from the same
> regions having problems with the Ms. Surprisingly none of them
> although purely oil varieties are yielding their promissed figures.
> In fact they are far behind! I am just wondering: are these varieties
> going to face same destiny? You need more time for appraisal
> researching!
> One thing I am sure of and that is (without hard feelings): Many
> growers who claim to have fully irrigated groves need to develop
> their practices of grove management as well as their targets.
>

This is very true. I am taking my irrigation schedule to fit in with my
vineyard irrigation schedule (I can't run both at once) and the vineyard
takes priority as the vines are a lot more finicky. I really should have a
good hard think about how much water and when.

Regards,

Mike Wilson
Twin Trees Cottages, Hunter Valley.
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Thanks Mohamad and Mike for that useful addition to our emerging olive
knowledge base (Aust).

That the problem could be solved from afar, and in such short time, proves
once again how useful this olive discussion group has become.

Regards,

Phil Bramley
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>Mohamed

Again, more wonderful information, Please find time to continue helping
us.
Graham White
Fordwich Olive Farm
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>We want to thank everyone who has responded...Mike Wilson was good enough to
actually come over and look at our trees and we too are impressed and
gratified by Mohamed's wisdom from a distance.
Thank you all...wish us luck!
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Wilson <mike.wilson@hunterlink.net.au>
To: <OliveOil@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2000 11:28
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Are our trees dying?


>
> > From: Mohamed El-Kholy
> >
> > Dear Allan & Judith
> >
> > No your trees are definitely not dying. Further and based on the
> > symptoms you have described (among which: leaves are turning black
> > and falling off and stakes exhibit same oiliness appearance), I do
> > not believe that you have a scale problem on those very specific
> > trees. In fact they shall not be infected with scale for quite some
> > time until they recover as they are currently drying out of their
> > natural sap, which attracts such pests.
> >
> > You have been totally right. Increased oil concentration at the end
> > of each 20 liters tank application has caused this and therefore if
> > you look at your grove with a hawk eye, you will find the unhappy
> > trees in distinctive spots. If your trees are similar in size meaning
> > that they consume similar amounts of the spraying solution, you will
> > even find that these spots have a symmetrical repeatable pattern
> > (i.e. every certain number of trees). If you can memorize your
> > spraying operation, you will ascertain that these trees were the last
> > sprayed ones from each tank. For many different reasons and whatever
> > growers are spraying, I always recommend that they should mark the
> > last sprayed tree of each round with a ribbon for future assessment
> > and data base establishment.
> >
>
> Mohamed,
>
> I paid a visit to Judith's gove on the weekend, and your diagnosis is spot
> on!
>
> It seems that the oil and water separated towards the end of each pass of
> spraying, so the least few trees took quite a heavy dose of oil. This is
> causing the stickiness and dust is starting to stick to the oil. There is
no
> real damage to the trees, and the spraying was done late in the season
after
> the hot weather so there is no burning or "frying" of the leaves in the
oil.
>
> There does seem to be another, probably unrelated problem with a couple of
> the trees, I suspect it is just a coincidence that thet were also oil
> affected. My opinion is that there is some form of root disturbance
causing
> the trees to drop leaves. They are very young trees, to about 1.2m - 1.5m
> and have kept the end of the branch leaves, but lost the leaves lower down
> the branches. This is the same symptom I had with my Kalamata which turned
> out to be a root fungus problem, so Judith will be spraying the trees with
a
> systemic fungicide (Alliette) next week to see if that clears it up.
> It worked well on my trees about 18 months ago and they have recovered
> fully.
>
> >
> > Oil affected trees do not easily surrender and die, unless they were
> > originally unhealthy, and therefore they have sap traces in their
> > drying out organs. To recover quickly they need your help. Prune them
> > as per my last article of AOG issue 17 as I have already addressed
> > this case. The degree of pruning will be proportional to the degree
> > of oil and defoliation damage. The worst case might demand drastic
> > pruning. After pruning and on the hope of removing some of the oil,
> > which is choking them, wash them with a mild water jet, which should
> > not cause more defoliation.
>
> Much of the oil has now washed off, the only evidence is a darker, oily
mark
> on the trunk and on the stakes (plastic). We haven't had much rain
recently,
> so a wash would probably be a good idea.
>
> My suspicion is that the oil they used wasn't misible. I have had no
> problems using petroleum based white oil not "organic" vegetable oil. Alan
&
> Judith were advised by a local citrus grower not to bother with
"expensive"
> white oil and just use "organic" vegetable oil as it did the same job. I
beg
> to differ.
>
> >
> > Your more thinking and second diagnoses was right and this is a true
> > example of new growers who have to be more self-confident and must
> > trust their instincts.
> >
> > Prof. Stan Kailis of UWA has identified some of the causes for olive
> > leaf loss and I would like to add two more to his list:
> > Ø Ageing, which should be clearly identified by growers so that
> > they do not get panic and ask for a remote advice over a distance,
> > which might cause unnecessary harm. Here I am also giving an advice
> > over a distance like many others, so please be cautious.
> > Ø Draught.
> >
>
> Not aging ... trees are still very young and most of the grove is
vigorous.
> Probably not drought as the block is irrigated, however water stress might
> be a factor.
>
>
> > I might also add to Prof Kailis comments that nematodes cause leaf
> > loss but do not cause defoliation. In this case the leaves will
> > completely dry but will remain strongly attached to their branches.
> >
>
> Nematodes are unlikely as the ground is virgin territory and unlikely to
> have built up any significant nematode population.
>
>
>
> >
> > TO UNSATISFIED OZ MANZANILLOS GROWERS: Again be patient and give your
> > trees another chance for a season or two as I said before. I have
> > been looking at oil yield figures of other cultivars from the same
> > regions having problems with the Ms. Surprisingly none of them
> > although purely oil varieties are yielding their promissed figures.
> > In fact they are far behind! I am just wondering: are these varieties
> > going to face same destiny? You need more time for appraisal
> > researching!
> > One thing I am sure of and that is (without hard feelings): Many
> > growers who claim to have fully irrigated groves need to develop
> > their practices of grove management as well as their targets.
> >
>
> This is very true. I am taking my irrigation schedule to fit in with my
> vineyard irrigation schedule (I can't run both at once) and the vineyard
> takes priority as the vines are a lot more finicky. I really should have a
> good hard think about how much water and when.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Wilson
> Twin Trees Cottages, Hunter Valley.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tradiant is creating the premiere marketplace for shippers and ocean
> carriers to conduct the business of moving containerized freight online.
> Our comprehensive suite of online services saves time and money. Visit
> Tradiant today. www.tradiant.com
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owner. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> To learn more about the OliveOil group visit:
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
</pre>
</td></tr></table>

<table border=0 cellpadding=2 cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
<pre>It would be possible to determine both nematode levels and fungus infection
with appropriate tests. My preplanting assay for nemetodes indicated a
possible problem, and it had been pasture for 70 years.
In Victoria, Crop Health Services can analyse material
Peter Wilson

At 11:28 AM 7/18/00 +1000, you wrote:
>
>> From: Mohamed El-Kholy
>>
>> Dear Allan & Judith
>>
>> No your trees are definitely not dying. Further and based on the
>> symptoms you have described (among which: leaves are turning black
>> and falling off and stakes exhibit same oiliness appearance), I do
>> not believe that you have a scale problem on those very specific
>> trees. In fact they shall not be infected with scale for quite some
>> time until they recover as they are currently drying out of their
>> natural sap, which attracts such pests.
>>
>> You have been totally right. Increased oil concentration at the end
>> of each 20 liters tank application has caused this and therefore if
>> you look at your grove with a hawk eye, you will find the unhappy
>> trees in distinctive spots. If your trees are similar in size meaning
>> that they consume similar amounts of the spraying solution, you will
>> even find that these spots have a symmetrical repeatable pattern
>> (i.e. every certain number of trees). If you can memorize your
>> spraying operation, you will ascertain that these trees were the last
>> sprayed ones from each tank. For many different reasons and whatever
>> growers are spraying, I always recommend that they should mark the
>> last sprayed tree of each round with a ribbon for future assessment
>> and data base establishment.
>>
>
>Mohamed,
>
>I paid a visit to Judith's gove on the weekend, and your diagnosis is spot
>on!
>
>It seems that the oil and water separated towards the end of each pass of
>spraying, so the least few trees took quite a heavy dose of oil. This is
>causing the stickiness and dust is starting to stick to the oil. There is no
>real damage to the trees, and the spraying was done late in the season after
>the hot weather so there is no burning or "frying" of the leaves in the oil.
>
>There does seem to be another, probably unrelated problem with a couple of
>the trees, I suspect it is just a coincidence that thet were also oil
>affected. My opinion is that there is some form of root disturbance causing
>the trees to drop leaves. They are very young trees, to about 1.2m - 1.5m
>and have kept the end of the branch leaves, but lost the leaves lower down
>the branches. This is the same symptom I had with my Kalamata which turned
>out to be a root fungus problem, so Judith will be spraying the trees with a
>systemic fungicide (Alliette) next week to see if that clears it up.
>It worked well on my trees about 18 months ago and they have recovered
>fully.
>
>>
>> Oil affected trees do not easily surrender and die, unless they were
>> originally unhealthy, and therefore they have sap traces in their
>> drying out organs. To recover quickly they need your help. Prune them
>> as per my last article of AOG issue 17 as I have already addressed
>> this case. The degree of pruning will be proportional to the degree
>> of oil and defoliation damage. The worst case might demand drastic
>> pruning. After pruning and on the hope of removing some of the oil,
>> which is choking them, wash them with a mild water jet, which should
>> not cause more defoliation.
>
>Much of the oil has now washed off, the only evidence is a darker, oily mark
>on the trunk and on the stakes (plastic). We haven't had much rain recently,
>so a wash would probably be a good idea.
>
>My suspicion is that the oil they used wasn't misible. I have had no
>problems using petroleum based white oil not "organic" vegetable oil. Alan &
>Judith were advised by a local citrus grower not to bother with "expensive"
>white oil and just use "organic" vegetable oil as it did the same job. I beg
>to differ.
>
>>
>> Your more thinking and second diagnoses was right and this is a true
>> example of new growers who have to be more self-confident and must
>> trust their instincts.
>>
>> Prof. Stan Kailis of UWA has identified some of the causes for olive
>> leaf loss and I would like to add two more to his list:
>> Ø Ageing, which should be clearly identified by growers so that
>> they do not get panic and ask for a remote advice over a distance,
>> which might cause unnecessary harm. Here I am also giving an advice
>> over a distance like many others, so please be cautious.
>> Ø Draught.
>>
>
>Not aging ... trees are still very young and most of the grove is vigorous.
>Probably not drought as the block is irrigated, however water stress might
>be a factor.
>
>
>> I might also add to Prof Kailis comments that nematodes cause leaf
>> loss but do not cause defoliation. In this case the leaves will
>> completely dry but will remain strongly attached to their branches.
>>
>
>Nematodes are unlikely as the ground is virgin territory and unlikely to
>have built up any significant nematode population.
>
>
>
>>
>> TO UNSATISFIED OZ MANZANILLOS GROWERS: Again be patient and give your
>> trees another chance for a season or two as I said before. I have
>> been looking at oil yield figures of other cultivars from the same
>> regions having problems with the Ms. Surprisingly none of them
>> although purely oil varieties are yielding their promissed figures.
>> In fact they are far behind! I am just wondering: are these varieties
>> going to face same destiny? You need more time for appraisal
>> researching!
>> One thing I am sure of and that is (without hard feelings): Many
>> growers who claim to have fully irrigated groves need to develop
>> their practices of grove management as well as their targets.
>>
>
>This is very true. I am taking my irrigation schedule to fit in with my
>vineyard irrigation schedule (I can't run both at once) and the vineyard
>takes priority as the vines are a lot more finicky. I really should have a
>good hard think about how much water and when.
>
>Regards,
>
>Mike Wilson
>Twin Trees Cottages, Hunter Valley.
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tradiant is creating the premiere marketplace for shippers and ocean
>carriers to conduct the business of moving containerized freight online.
>Our comprehensive suite of online services saves time and money. Visit
>Tradiant today. www.tradiant.com
>http://click.egroups.com/1/5502/1/_/137757/_/963884057/
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>TODAY'S FEATURED SITE: Yours. Let me know if your want me to list your
website here for free. Contact the list owner.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To learn more about the OliveOil group visit:
http://www.egroups.com/group/OliveOil
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Remember: Invite others to join OliveOil
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Post message: OliveOil@egroups.com
>Subscribe: OliveOil-subscribe@egroups.com
>Unsubscribe: OliveOil-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>List owner: OliveOil-owner@egroups.com
>URL to this page: http://www.egroups.com/group/OliveOil
>
</pre>
</td></tr></table>