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<pre>--- nickandrews2002 <belial1958@...> wrote: >
--- In OliveOil@y..., Antony Whiting
> <zeytingul@y...> wrote:
> > --- Mike Wilson <mike.wilson@h...>
> > wrote: >
> > >
> > > > Andrew
> > > > The best analogy I can use is our local Hunter
> > > Valley wine industry.
> > > > Individual 'hands on' growers do well, I can
> think
> > > of one in particular
> > > > who is picking up many awards and has presold
> most
> > > of his product after
> > > > years of struggle. These growers hand pick the
> > > fruit and process
> > > > carefully, another grower inspects each bunch
> > > prior to pressing. They
> > > > are not threatened by cask wine or supermaket
> > > lines and there is a
> > > > growing demand for their product. It is this
> > > obvious personal attention
> > > > to detail that gives them the edge, something
> that
> > > is appreciated by the
> > > > consumer and cannot be duplicated by the large
> > > concerns. I dont think
> > > > that small growers producing their own product
> > > have anything to fear
> > > > from the large producers unless they are
> > > contracted as suppliers to
> > > > those businesses. This could mean that there
> will
> > > be a proliferation of
> > > > small mills with plenty of variety of product
> to
> > > interest the consumer.
> > >
> > > Roger,
> > >
> > > To take your analogy one step further, ask
> yourself
> > > who produces the top
> > > wines in Australia. I doubt that many would
> argue
> > > that wines such as
> > > Penforld's Grange, Rosemount Roxburgh
> Chardonnay,
> > > etc ate the top of the
> > > line, and produced by the biggest companies.
> > >
> > > With a huge operation, there is bound to be more
> > > resources to draw on, more
> > > potential to produce excellence. It doesn't
> > > automatically mean that big
> > > means bland.
> > >
> > > Smaller growers may only have one batch of fruit
> to
> > > process, so their
> > > eventual oil quality may well not be reliable.
> > >
> > > Mike Wilson.
> > >
> > >Surely this is a simplistic argument.
>
>
> Fantasitic response, Anthony. You said everthing I
> was thinking.
>
> The example of Penfolds being held up as mass
> producers who make a
> superb wine,ie. therefore all their wines are
> fantastic, is terribly
> flawed.
>
> Small producers whose goals are to produce high
> quality oils are
> invariably driven by the need to make the best
> possible oil they can.
> And that's what drives a national reputation, not
> large scale
> producers who work to price points.
>
> And above all, let's not forget that the nature of a
> great oil or
> wine is based on seasonal and environmental
> variance, not on some
> inane market driven notion of compliance to a
> "standard".
>
>
>
> >
> > Great wine and great olive oil is first and
> foremost
> > made from great fruit. The fruit and the product
> is
> > distinctive in the market place because of the
> > terroir; that is the regional characteristics such
> as
> > soil, climate, rainfall etc. The product is
> further
> > distinguished by its mode of production. Different
> > components are assembled and treated in different
> ways
> > to provide complexity and to develop the intensity
> of
> > characteristics identified in the fruit.And of
> course
> > the product is positioned in the market place with
> a
> > commodity value which may represent the
> advertising
> > dollar more than the quality of the product
> itself.
> > Certainly the large wineries have much greater
> > economic capital than the small producers and
> hence a
> > much greater capacity (and volume) to sell their
> > product. There are very few bad wines ( ie faulty
> > wines) made in Australia today. There are many
> > different qualities and price points available,
> just
> > as one would expect with olive oil.
> >
> > Any producer, large or small with access to
> premium
> > fruit, appropriate equipment and creative and
> > technical skills is capable of producing great
> wine or
> > olive oil.Large producers produce many different
> > products, including 'hands on', cutting edge
> attention
> > to detail super premium products and large volume
> > every day consumption products. The point of
> > contention that concerns us all is in the equation
> > between creative, quality interests versus the
> need
> > for financial return and accountability. Size is
> not
> > the issue! Quality will always be represented by
> > different niche markets and different socially
> > constructed perceptions of quality and value.
> >
> >
> >
> > Antony Whiting
> > First Creek
> > Waterfall Gully
> > South Australia.
>
> Fantastic post!
>
> Where can I buy your oils?...
>
>
> Nick Andrews
> Ellengrove
>
>Thanks for your support Nick. I hope our oil will be
available soon! We have been restaurateurs for 15
years (Mona Lisa's Bistro and Cafe Istanbul) and sold
our business five years ago. My wife, Brigita,
lectures in cookery at Adelaide TAFE and previously at
Regency College of TAFE. I am in the final stages of a
PhD Thesis in the Department of Anthropology at the
University of Adelaide in which I am examining
contested artistic and management interests in
Adelaide; I did fieldwork research on the Adelaide
Festival of Arts and the Meryl Tankard Australian
Dance Theatre.

We bought a house at Waterfall Gully after we sold our
restaurant and it came with a 4.5 hectare remnant of
Sir Samual Davenport's circa 1850 'original' olive
groves planted on his Beaumont Estate. The trees have
been neglected for more than 30 years and we have been
pruning and restoring and cutting access tracks...its
quite steep terrain, thin layer of clay and shale over
deep limestone....We have been pressing oil for the
last three years. This year we intend to market it.
It's very labour intensive and most of the trees are
low yielding and difficult to access. I hope we can
produce 300-500 litres this year and double that next
year. So far we have been having marketing discussions
with Bottega Rotolo in Adelaide and Simon Tam in Hong
Kong.

Perhaps this explains a few things about where my
posting derived from!

We have many friends in hospitality and the wine
industry. As former restaurateurs with a strong
interest in premium wine and produce we recognise this
is a great opportunity to work with some unique
material. We pick on weekends with our friends and
neighbours and have done three pressings in the last
three weeks. Our preferred and nearest press is the
Oliomio 100 at Urrbrae High School. We have also
pressed some material at Greenfields. On our
instruction Greenfield's Alfa Laval pressed at 28
degrees ( rather than their preferred 36 degrees) and
we got a return of nearly 15 %. Urrbrae's Oliomio
pressed at around 20 - 25 degrees and we got a return
of around 11%. The oil from the Oliomio came out with
more pepper and complexity than the Alfa Laval and we
hope to press at Urrbrae again on Monday.

Thanks for your interest and I'll report again on our
progress.

Tony & Brigita
First Creek

http://www.sold.com.au - The Sold.com.au Big Brand Sale
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<pre>Mike
just a few points

different oils: there are big differences in flavours of oils due to
various factors. Probably the easiest way to demonstrate this is to go
to an outlet such as O&O (Olivier & Co, there is one in in chatswood).
They have the facility to taste different varieties from different
regions which exhibit marked flavour differentials. I agree that the
range would not be as marked as between say a sauterne and a durif but
that would be an extreme case. There is also a Flaschengeist facility
in the Hunter but I dont know what oils they have.

wine consumption: most of the world dont drink alcohol. Of those that do
most dont drink wine, they drink beer. But everyone has to eat and a lot
of people use oils in their cooking and a lot of people are becoming
more health conscious. Health is a growth industry. In my very limited
experience of selling the product I was surprised at the amount of
interest from 'older' people. Some were acting on the advice of
naturopaths, doctors etc & they are careful as to what they consume.
There was no quibbling on the price as long as the quality was assured.

wine promotion: I dont understand how you can say that "the current
popularity both here and overseas has been due in a large part to the
big companies creating a market for themselves" and then "Without Wolf
Blass, Len Evans, Brian Mcguigan, Peter Lehmann and the like talking the
punters into trying wine there would be no wine market." It seems a
contradiction in terms. I would say that if you were to repeat the
first statement in front of Len Evans you would be most surprised at his
reaction.

costs: I cant believe how anyone cannot be aware of their own costs of
production. Unless it is not a business but a hobby and no records are
kept. I certainly think that a lot of people will be disappointed by the
'underperformance' of their investment compared to the projections
supplied by some advisors.

I think it unfortunate that you think that the success of this industry
is solely dependant on the success of Viva. I would like to think that
the reverse should apply. They will certainly play a role as will other
factors and it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

Roger Farquhar

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<pre>Roger

>Probably the easiest way to demonstrate this is to go
> to an outlet such as O&O (Olivier & Co, there is one in in Chatswood).

With due respect to the marketing of olive oil these people are flash
packagers.

>There is also a Flaschengeist facility
> in the Hunter but I don't know what oils they have.

And these people, in my opinion, are flash presenters. Forget about this lot
of marketers.

> I think it unfortunate that you think that the success of this industry
> is solely dependant on the success of Viva.

I do not think anyone thinks that our industry will ride upon the success of
Viva or anyone else. Viva have, after all, admitted a cardinal sin. Better
we just get on with the job of producing good stuff.

Regards
Peter Caird
www.victorianolivegroves.com
0418 392 157



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<pre>> Mike
> just a few points
>
> different oils: there are big differences in flavours of oils due to
> various factors. Probably the easiest way to demonstrate this is to go
> to an outlet such as O&O (Olivier & Co, there is one in in chatswood).
> They have the facility to taste different varieties from different
> regions which exhibit marked flavour differentials. I agree that the
> range would not be as marked as between say a sauterne and a durif but
> that would be an extreme case. There is also a Flaschengeist facility
> in the Hunter but I dont know what oils they have.

Hunter Grove. After all, it is run by Sharn!

>
> wine consumption: most of the world dont drink alcohol. Of those that do
> most dont drink wine, they drink beer. But everyone has to eat and a lot
> of people use oils in their cooking and a lot of people are becoming
> more health conscious. Health is a growth industry. In my very limited
> experience of selling the product I was surprised at the amount of
> interest from 'older' people. Some were acting on the advice of
> naturopaths, doctors etc & they are careful as to what they consume.
> There was no quibbling on the price as long as the quality was assured.
>

Indeed. However I do believe we need to get every TV chef extolloing the
virtues of EVOO and we need to get the message out that Pure & Light and not
as good as EV or Virgin and all the other positive issues. We all know this
stuff, but the punters don't necessarily know why they should buy the better
grades, how long to keep it, and all the rest.

> wine promotion: I dont understand how you can say that "the current
> popularity both here and overseas has been due in a large part to the
> big companies creating a market for themselves" and then "Without Wolf
> Blass, Len Evans, Brian Mcguigan, Peter Lehmann and the like talking the
> punters into trying wine there would be no wine market." It seems a
> contradiction in terms. I would say that if you were to repeat the
> first statement in front of Len Evans you would be most surprised at his
> reaction.
>

I used to work for Len, so nothing suprises me!

No contradiction at all. The mega companies of today didn't exist when Wolf
Blass launched his label, when len launched Rothbury Estate, Brian pushed
Wyndham Estate onto the map and the like. The amount of wine consumed per
head in Australia was 2 glasses a year back in the early 70s. What is it
now? I don't know the figures, but "a damn site more" is probably a good
answer as any.
What happened? Some keen marketing people persuaded the Australian public to
try their wines. Wolf, Len, Brian & Peter all had a major part in this
promotion, put themselves in front of the camera, and did the hard yards.

> costs: I cant believe how anyone cannot be aware of their own costs of
> production. Unless it is not a business but a hobby and no records are
> kept. I certainly think that a lot of people will be disappointed by the
> 'underperformance' of their investment compared to the projections
> supplied by some advisors.
>

I wan't strictly serious on this one. I have a pretty good idea of the
costs.

> I think it unfortunate that you think that the success of this industry
> is solely dependant on the success of Viva. I would like to think that
> the reverse should apply. They will certainly play a role as will other
> factors and it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
>
> Roger Farquhar
>

Not solely dependent on Viva, but I feel that anybody who is going to spend
money promoting olive oil is a friend, not the enemy. As I see it, canola,
vegetable oil, grapeseed oil and the like are the enemy.

Personally, I think the olive industry needs a figurehead. Somebody who can
be identified as the "public face" of all that is good about olive oil &
olives, that can talk to the press, do cooking demonstrations, answer
questions and the like. Just like the wine industry did, all those years
ago.


Mike Wilson.
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<pre>Dear Peter.

Please respect or at least tolerate what other innovative 'marketers' are doing?
There are many different ways of marketing and qualities of product to match. A
growing number of marketers are focussed on the quality end of the market, not
the volume end and no apology.

To call Olivier's&Co 'flash packagers' seems to indicate that you haven't been
to one of their shops in Europe, USA or even in Chatswood/Sydney.
Attractive and innovative packaging of quality products and a different shopping
environment can do a lot to sell high quality Extra Virgin olive oil.
I admire or at least respect their efforts to give their customers convenient
access in their shops to experience many different quality oils.

To call Flaschengeist 'flash presenters' with the added advise 'to forget about
this lot of marketers' only shows your ignorance of another innovative shopping
experience offered to people looking for quality oils, vinegars, spirits and
liqueurs. Or don't you like Flaschengeist because they stopped buying oil from
you, which did not meet their quality criteria?

I have brought the Flaschengeist concept to Australia to give customers the
chance to taste and experience each and every product before they might buy it.
Have a look under www.flaschengeist.com.au to may be better understand the
concept.

When I first saw this concept in my native Germany, I was fascinated by the idea
that each product is sampled and tasted in the shops by the potential customer
before being filled into a beautiful and/or convenient bottle.
There is no escape from your customer experiencing poor quality oil right in
front of you. It is not only later at their home that they first find out that
the oil is rancid and then most probably will not confront you. Or even worse
when the oil has been bought as a gift for a friend and the friend is too
embarrassed to tell your customer that he/she didn't like it at all.
This need for honesty and total focus on product quality encouraged me to invest
funds and energy to launch Flaschengeist in Australia. I want my 100% Australian
certified (BFA) organic Extra Virgin olive oil to be of highest achievable and
maintainable quality. And I also want my customers to be able to taste it before
they buy. Selling the oil in Flaschengeist shops gives them the best
opportunity, not only at food shows or the markets, but every day in the middle
of the city, in a shopping centre or wherever they can find one of the growing
number of shops.

You present your products with pride and focus on quality (see your website
www.victorianolivegroves.com/home.htm).

Why don't you join me to support, respect or at least tolerate other innovative
and responsible producers, wholesalers and retailers?

Especially the emerging Australian olive community will benefit if we can raise
and maintain the quality of our oils for customers who know what good olive oils
are like. And they will only come to know if we continually give them a chance
to experience high quality oils and learn to understand the difference between
high and poor quality oils.

Regards

Knut Kammann
Lakelands Olives
Clandulla NSW Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: P Caird
To: OliveOil@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [OliveOil] Re: quantity vs quality


Roger

>Probably the easiest way to demonstrate this is to go
> to an outlet such as O&O (Olivier & Co, there is one in in Chatswood).

With due respect to the marketing of olive oil these people are flash
packagers.

>There is also a Flaschengeist facility
> in the Hunter but I don't know what oils they have.

And these people, in my opinion, are flash presenters. Forget about this lot
of marketers.

> I think it unfortunate that you think that the success of this industry
> is solely dependant on the success of Viva.

I do not think anyone thinks that our industry will ride upon the success of
Viva or anyone else. Viva have, after all, admitted a cardinal sin. Better
we just get on with the job of producing good stuff.

Regards
Peter Caird
www.victorianolivegroves.com
0418 392 157



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