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<pre>Andrew
The best analogy I can use is our local Hunter Valley wine industry.
Individual 'hands on' growers do well, I can think of one in particular
who is picking up many awards and has presold most of his product after
years of struggle. These growers hand pick the fruit and process
carefully, another grower inspects each bunch prior to pressing. They
are not threatened by cask wine or supermaket lines and there is a
growing demand for their product. It is this obvious personal attention
to detail that gives them the edge, something that is appreciated by the
consumer and cannot be duplicated by the large concerns. I dont think
that small growers producing their own product have anything to fear
from the large producers unless they are contracted as suppliers to
those businesses. This could mean that there will be a proliferation of
small mills with plenty of variety of product to interest the consumer.

However I am still interested in the success of the 1 million barnea.

Roger Farquhar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<pre>> Andrew
> The best analogy I can use is our local Hunter Valley wine industry.
> Individual 'hands on' growers do well, I can think of one in particular
> who is picking up many awards and has presold most of his product after
> years of struggle. These growers hand pick the fruit and process
> carefully, another grower inspects each bunch prior to pressing. They
> are not threatened by cask wine or supermaket lines and there is a
> growing demand for their product. It is this obvious personal attention
> to detail that gives them the edge, something that is appreciated by the
> consumer and cannot be duplicated by the large concerns. I dont think
> that small growers producing their own product have anything to fear
> from the large producers unless they are contracted as suppliers to
> those businesses. This could mean that there will be a proliferation of
> small mills with plenty of variety of product to interest the consumer.

Roger,

To take your analogy one step further, ask yourself who produces the top
wines in Australia. I doubt that many would argue that wines such as
Penforld's Grange, Rosemount Roxburgh Chardonnay, etc ate the top of the
line, and produced by the biggest companies.

With a huge operation, there is bound to be more resources to draw on, more
potential to produce excellence. It doesn't automatically mean that big
means bland.

Smaller growers may only have one batch of fruit to process, so their
eventual oil quality may well not be reliable.

Mike Wilson.
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<pre>> To take your analogy one step further, ask yourself who produces the top
> wines in Australia. I doubt that many would argue that wines such as
> Penforld's Grange, Rosemount Roxburgh Chardonnay, etc are the top of the
> line, and produced by the biggest companies.
>
> With a huge operation, there is bound to be more resources to draw on,
more
> potential to produce excellence. It doesn't automatically mean that big
> means bland.
>
> Smaller growers may only have one batch of fruit to process, so their
> eventual oil quality may well not be reliable.

A timely reminder Mike. We must not get too precious about what we do.
Certainly we smaller processors aspire to produce high quality product but
it is not always possible.

Processing mature Manzanillo this season for example has been a mixed
blessing but a worthwhile nonetheless. All of the fruit, from 4 different
growers of 4 year old trees, resulted in 3 different types of oil. One (at
21%) was bitterly bitter, another (at 15%) was worthy only as a soap effort,
the final two (also at 15%) produced a remarkable oil in organoleptic terms.
The previous year I had processed the fruit from these same (latter) trees
that ended up with an oil that Judy Ridgway adjudged worthy of inclusion in
her new edition.

Now it may be that the other trees (because of a variety of factors) may
produce a good oil in the future or it may be that we could blend said oil
with another to produce a well balanced oil but... there is no guarantee.

Regards
Peter Caird
www.victorianolivegroves.com
0418 392 157



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free by AVG
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<pre>.
>
> With the greatest of respect, you got to be kidding.
>
> The appeal of olive oil is its variance, NOT its conformity to a
> standard. Smaller growers are generally highly dedicated to each and
> every step of their production process, with monitoring for quality
> their highest priority. The very fact that there may be some
> difference in style of their product from season to season is a plus,
> not a minus.

"Smaller growers are generally highly dedicated to each and every step
....."

Hmm, that doesn't always ring true. I don't know where you are based and
what your local growers are doing, but here in the Hunter Valley we have an
olive and (to a lesser degree) a grape growing industry which is the
province of the Pitt Street farmer. I look after and advise several local
growers, all of whom are Sydney based, all of whom have bought the property
in the country with the intention of eventually giving up the day job to
retire to a life on the farm, kicking back and relaxing. Very few Hunter
Valley growers have more than 3000 trees. Very few actually live and work 7
days a week on site, and very few rely on olives as their primary source of
income. The Hunter Olive Association has around 180 members, over 50% of
which give their address as somewhere in Sydney. This is not a small
proprtion of our industry, but rather the majority.

As a result their 1 or 2 day a week commitment to "generally highly
dedicated to each and every step of their production process, with
monitoring for quality their highest priority." must be called into
question. I suspect this reaction is common within a 2 hour drive of any of
our capital cities.

>
> One cannot equate "consitency" with "quality". Unless of course you
> think a Penfolds "Chateau Collapso" is comparable to a Grange.

You miss the point. Small does not always mean good. Big does not
automatically mean bland. I also have strong ties to the Hunter Valley wine
industry, and I have never had a bad wine from Lindemans or Rosemount, but
I've tasted some shockers from the boutique wineries.

Mike Wilson.
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<pre>--- Mike Wilson <mike.wilson@...>
wrote: >
>
> > Andrew
> > The best analogy I can use is our local Hunter
> Valley wine industry.
> > Individual 'hands on' growers do well, I can think
> of one in particular
> > who is picking up many awards and has presold most
> of his product after
> > years of struggle. These growers hand pick the
> fruit and process
> > carefully, another grower inspects each bunch
> prior to pressing. They
> > are not threatened by cask wine or supermaket
> lines and there is a
> > growing demand for their product. It is this
> obvious personal attention
> > to detail that gives them the edge, something that
> is appreciated by the
> > consumer and cannot be duplicated by the large
> concerns. I dont think
> > that small growers producing their own product
> have anything to fear
> > from the large producers unless they are
> contracted as suppliers to
> > those businesses. This could mean that there will
> be a proliferation of
> > small mills with plenty of variety of product to
> interest the consumer.
>
> Roger,
>
> To take your analogy one step further, ask yourself
> who produces the top
> wines in Australia. I doubt that many would argue
> that wines such as
> Penforld's Grange, Rosemount Roxburgh Chardonnay,
> etc ate the top of the
> line, and produced by the biggest companies.
>
> With a huge operation, there is bound to be more
> resources to draw on, more
> potential to produce excellence. It doesn't
> automatically mean that big
> means bland.
>
> Smaller growers may only have one batch of fruit to
> process, so their
> eventual oil quality may well not be reliable.
>
> Mike Wilson.
>
>Surely this is a simplistic argument. You ask us who
produces the top wines in Australia and then you
answer in the voice of an imaginary dominant value
group that identifies the biggest wine companies as
the producers of the best wines, i.e. Grange Hermitage
and Rosemount Roxborough. Of course it all depends
upon the context of the evaluation. Are you saying the
most expensive wines are the best? Grange has now
become a commodity that is rarely consumed. Its
symbolic value has ascribed it a capital value which
transcends its value as a beverage for consumption.
Roxborough Chardonnay is held in greater esteem in its
state of origin, NSW, than in SA where Hunter Valley
wines are not greeted with the same level of interest
as regions such as Clare Valley, Margaret River or
Mornington Peninsula.

Jeffrey Grosset, in the Clare Valley, is a small
producer who was recently judged the best Riesling
producer in the world. Adam Wynn at Mountadam Wines,
Eden Valley, produces complex wines from single
vineyards by picking and processing different rows in
the vineyard at different times and placing them in
different new and used French oak barrels and
subjecting different components to different degrees
of fermentation and different development and
maturation processes.

Of course big wine companies enjoy resources beyond
those available to most small wineries. Yes, with
quality fruit and skilled wine making there is always
the potential to produce excellence. There is no
reason why big should equal bland.Large and small
producers are both subject to volume/quality concerns.
In the case of Coonawarra red wines the desire for
profit motivated many of the larger wineries to
produce wines from excessively high yielding vineyards
resulting in high volume, fruit driven wines lacking
complexity. Again producers have allowed the commodity
value of the Coonawarra region to ascribe a value to
some wines which do not represent the excellence the
region is renowned for producing.

Great wine and great olive oil is first and foremost
made from great fruit. The fruit and the product is
distinctive in the market place because of the
terroir; that is the regional characteristics such as
soil, climate, rainfall etc. The product is further
distinguished by its mode of production. Different
components are assembled and treated in different ways
to provide complexity and to develop the intensity of
characteristics identified in the fruit.And of course
the product is positioned in the market place with a
commodity value which may represent the advertising
dollar more than the quality of the product itself.
Certainly the large wineries have much greater
economic capital than the small producers and hence a
much greater capacity (and volume) to sell their
product. There are very few bad wines ( ie faulty
wines) made in Australia today. There are many
different qualities and price points available, just
as one would expect with olive oil.

Any producer, large or small with access to premium
fruit, appropriate equipment and creative and
technical skills is capable of producing great wine or
olive oil.Large producers produce many different
products, including 'hands on', cutting edge attention
to detail super premium products and large volume
every day consumption products. The point of
contention that concerns us all is in the equation
between creative, quality interests versus the need
for financial return and accountability. Size is not
the issue! Quality will always be represented by
different niche markets and different socially
constructed perceptions of quality and value.



Antony Whiting
First Creek
Waterfall Gully
South Australia.


http://travel.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Travel
- Plan and book your dream holiday online!
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<pre>Agree, 100%.

P Caird wrote:

>
> Processing mature Manzanillo this season for example has been a mixed
> blessing but a worthwhile nonetheless. All of the fruit, from 4 different
> growers of 4 year old trees, resulted in 3 different types of oil.
> One (at
> 21%) was bitterly bitter, another (at 15%) was worthy only as a soap
> effort,
> the final two (also at 15%) produced a remarkable oil in organoleptic
> terms.
> The previous year I had processed the fruit from these same (latter) trees
> that ended up with an oil that Judy Ridgway adjudged worthy of
> inclusion in
> her new edition.

We processed olives from one grove with VERY ripe Manzanillo (MI a bit
over 5) which produced an oil that was reminiscent of sweet ripe apples
to taste. Yet, 3 weeks later, we processed another grove's harvest of
Manzanillo with a MI of 6.35 which produced an oil with a good flavour
and even some pungency at the finish! Got me stumped!! Any
suggestions???? ANYONE?

>
>
> Now it may be that the other trees (because of a variety of factors) may
> produce a good oil in the future or it may be that we could blend said oil
> with another to produce a well balanced oil but... there is no guarantee.

Yep, but ...

Cheers
John Attwood
Tamworth
(Northern) NSW Au
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<pre>--- In OliveOil@y..., Antony Whiting <zeytingul@y...> wrote:
> --- Mike Wilson <mike.wilson@h...>
> wrote: >
> >
> > > Andrew
> > > The best analogy I can use is our local Hunter
> > Valley wine industry.
> > > Individual 'hands on' growers do well, I can think
> > of one in particular
> > > who is picking up many awards and has presold most
> > of his product after
> > > years of struggle. These growers hand pick the
> > fruit and process
> > > carefully, another grower inspects each bunch
> > prior to pressing. They
> > > are not threatened by cask wine or supermaket
> > lines and there is a
> > > growing demand for their product. It is this
> > obvious personal attention
> > > to detail that gives them the edge, something that
> > is appreciated by the
> > > consumer and cannot be duplicated by the large
> > concerns. I dont think
> > > that small growers producing their own product
> > have anything to fear
> > > from the large producers unless they are
> > contracted as suppliers to
> > > those businesses. This could mean that there will
> > be a proliferation of
> > > small mills with plenty of variety of product to
> > interest the consumer.
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > To take your analogy one step further, ask yourself
> > who produces the top
> > wines in Australia. I doubt that many would argue
> > that wines such as
> > Penforld's Grange, Rosemount Roxburgh Chardonnay,
> > etc ate the top of the
> > line, and produced by the biggest companies.
> >
> > With a huge operation, there is bound to be more
> > resources to draw on, more
> > potential to produce excellence. It doesn't
> > automatically mean that big
> > means bland.
> >
> > Smaller growers may only have one batch of fruit to
> > process, so their
> > eventual oil quality may well not be reliable.
> >
> > Mike Wilson.
> >
> >Surely this is a simplistic argument.


Fantasitic response, Anthony. You said everthing I was thinking.

The example of Penfolds being held up as mass producers who make a
superb wine,ie. therefore all their wines are fantastic, is terribly
flawed.

Small producers whose goals are to produce high quality oils are
invariably driven by the need to make the best possible oil they can.
And that's what drives a national reputation, not large scale
producers who work to price points.

And above all, let's not forget that the nature of a great oil or
wine is based on seasonal and environmental variance, not on some
inane market driven notion of compliance to a "standard".



>
> Great wine and great olive oil is first and foremost
> made from great fruit. The fruit and the product is
> distinctive in the market place because of the
> terroir; that is the regional characteristics such as
> soil, climate, rainfall etc. The product is further
> distinguished by its mode of production. Different
> components are assembled and treated in different ways
> to provide complexity and to develop the intensity of
> characteristics identified in the fruit.And of course
> the product is positioned in the market place with a
> commodity value which may represent the advertising
> dollar more than the quality of the product itself.
> Certainly the large wineries have much greater
> economic capital than the small producers and hence a
> much greater capacity (and volume) to sell their
> product. There are very few bad wines ( ie faulty
> wines) made in Australia today. There are many
> different qualities and price points available, just
> as one would expect with olive oil.
>
> Any producer, large or small with access to premium
> fruit, appropriate equipment and creative and
> technical skills is capable of producing great wine or
> olive oil.Large producers produce many different
> products, including 'hands on', cutting edge attention
> to detail super premium products and large volume
> every day consumption products. The point of
> contention that concerns us all is in the equation
> between creative, quality interests versus the need
> for financial return and accountability. Size is not
> the issue! Quality will always be represented by
> different niche markets and different socially
> constructed perceptions of quality and value.
>
>
>
> Antony Whiting
> First Creek
> Waterfall Gully
> South Australia.

Fantastic post!

Where can I buy your oils?...


Nick Andrews
Ellengrove
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<pre>Peter Caird
bad luck about the manzanillos-I remember in your postings that the
previous season was very long and hot (for you) and this year not so. In
the hunter some growers are biting the bullet and ripping them out.
Blocks of frantoio next to manzanillo, frantoio gave oil and manzanillo
gave water and took time and money.

With regards to Landline, its a pity that efforts to correct a known
situation happen only after public exposure. On the ABC radio the other
day an unnamed olive grower rang in and voiced his fury as to the damage
to consumer confidence these practices could inflict. Obviously there
are some people out there that have invested heavily and to whom quality
is an issue and see this type of publicity as being harmful.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<pre>>Surely this is a simplistic argument. You ask us who
> produces the top wines in Australia and then you
> answer in the voice of an imaginary dominant value
> group that identifies the biggest wine companies as
> the producers of the best wines, i.e. Grange Hermitage
> and Rosemount Roxborough. Of course it all depends
> upon the context of the evaluation. Are you saying the
> most expensive wines are the best? Grange has now
> become a commodity that is rarely consumed. Its
> symbolic value has ascribed it a capital value which
> transcends its value as a beverage for consumption.
> Roxborough Chardonnay is held in greater esteem in its
> state of origin, NSW, than in SA where Hunter Valley
> wines are not greeted with the same level of interest
> as regions such as Clare Valley, Margaret River or
> Mornington Peninsula.

Resisting the temptation for a "State of Origin" stouch ....

Yes, you have a very valid point. I only picked on Rosemount because I was
familar with their product. I could just as easily have picked any major
winery from any major wine producing area and probably found an example.

Of course there are fantastic wines made by dedicated winemakers on small
scales throughout the land. However, price does start to become a factor in
the process. Does the consumer value the difference between a $10 bottle of
Australian EVOO and a $20 bottle the same way they see wine?
>
> Great wine and great olive oil is first and foremost
> made from great fruit. The fruit and the product is
> distinctive in the market place because of the
> terroir; that is the regional characteristics such as
> soil, climate, rainfall etc.

Does that hold true for olives? Comeback in 200 years and I'll give you an
answer.

The product is further
> distinguished by its mode of production. Different
> components are assembled and treated in different ways
> to provide complexity and to develop the intensity of
> characteristics identified in the fruit.

Other than using a traditional press or a modern cetrifuge type system,
what other variations do we have? We don't have different yeast strains,
different types of fermentation vessels, temperature control, barrels or the
like. Its just the oil squeezed out of an olive.

And of course
> the product is positioned in the market place with a
> commodity value which may represent the advertising
> dollar more than the quality of the product itself.
> Certainly the large wineries have much greater
> economic capital than the small producers and hence a
> much greater capacity (and volume) to sell their
> product. There are very few bad wines ( ie faulty
> wines) made in Australia today. There are many
> different qualities and price points available, just
> as one would expect with olive oil.
>

One final wine analogy. The current popularity both here and overseas has
been due in a large part to the big companies creating a market for
themselves. Who drank wine 30 years ago? Who doesn't today? Without Wolf
Blass, Len Evans, Brian Mcguigan, Peter Lehmann and the like talking the
punters into trying wine there would be no wine market.
Look at the export field. Jacob's Creek lead the way and everybody else
followed them in. Not a boutique company, but 4 or 5 really progessive, big
companies trying to establish a market for themselves and at the same time
creating a market for everybody else.

Unless the big players such as Viva are prepared to spend serious money
creating a demand for oilive oil and persuading the consumer that Australian
is as good or better than the imported stuff, then I am going to struggle to
sell my couple of hundred bottles at a decent price.

> Any producer, large or small with access to premium
> fruit, appropriate equipment and creative and
> technical skills is capable of producing great wine or
> olive oil.Large producers produce many different
> products, including 'hands on', cutting edge attention
> to detail super premium products and large volume
> every day consumption products. The point of
> contention that concerns us all is in the equation
> between creative, quality interests versus the need
> for financial return and accountability. Size is not
> the issue! Quality will always be represented by
> different niche markets and different socially
> constructed perceptions of quality and value.
>
>
>
> Antony Whiting
> First Creek
> Waterfall Gully
> South Australia.
>

We come to the curly question. Selling the stuff. From my wine industry
background I know how much time, money and effort goes into producing a
bottle, and how much more goes into selling it. I can't see olive oil being
any different. I haven't yet had time to go into exactly what it has cost me
to plant and maintain the grove, pick and process the fruit and produce the
oil, but I suspect I really don't want to know!

Regards,

Mike Wilson
Broke (its a town, honest!)
Hunter Valley
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<pre>--- In OliveOil@y..., Roger Farquhar <rogfarlandsc@o...> wrote:
>On the ABC radio the other
> day an unnamed olive grower rang in and voiced his fury as to the
damage to consumer confidence these practices could inflict.
Obviously there are some people out there that have invested heavily
and to whom quality is an issue and see this type of publicity as
being harmful.


was this on ABC 702, around about 2 in the afternoon, in a discussion
with James Valentine (the radio discussion was about whether or not
consumers buy a product based on it being australian. dick smith was
on as well as the publisher of the survey which suggested that the
fact that a product was australian wasn't a main reason people bought
a product) ?

if so, that was me..
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